Minion Fist Fights

[hong]

Bertrand Russell quoted Desert Gled better than I did?

Indeed he did. Because unlike you, he would have inserted the rest of the post, which runs as follows.

... However, once this is done, the DM is now making up his own rules. He is not following the rules that anyone else would find written in the books. He is not following the Rules As Written. The DM is now literally following the Rules As Written while breaking the Rules As Written.

Simply put: By the RAW, the DM is not required to follow the RAW. That does not make his houserules RAW.

Please stop claiming that breaking the RAW is the same as following the RAW, because you will make the baby Bertrand Russell cry.

 

[Andor]

Without the use of the "You can change the rules, if you want" statement in the 3e DMG, it is impossible to make a minion in 3e.

This is flat wrong. As I pointed out before, it's perfectly possible to make an orc horde where the swarm of 1st level Orc Warriors are still capable of hitting higher level PCs due to a series of buffs from some mid level Orc with levels in classes that buff like clerics, marshals, bards, and dragon shamans.

Is that more work than using the minion rules in 4e? Yep.

Does it work for all monster types and woolly mammoths? Nope.

Is it something you want to use every session? Nope.

Are minions therefore easier to do in 4e? Yep.

So minions can only be used in 4e? Nope. See above.

If you want the PCs to carve their way through a horde of weaker, but still dangerous mooks in 3e on their way to the climactic boss fight it can be done. With Orcs or any humanoid as I suggest above. Or with undead using some of the stuff from liber mortis. Or with any weak creature by assigning an arbitrary morale bonus to hit as a blessing from their Dark God.

And it will be a big climactic battle that the pcs will remember and will violate not one damm RAW.

If you want to throw a horde of soap bubbles shaped like orcs/angels/demons/mammoths/dragons/random-prostitutes at the party every week? You need 4e. But I'm willing to bet the PCs won't remember any one mook horde as standing out from all the other mobs of the week.

Does that make 3e better than 4e? Nope.

Does it make 4e better than 3e? Who knows? I remain to be convinced.

 

[hong]

This is flat wrong. As I pointed out before, it's perfectly possible to make an orc horde where the swarm of 1st level Orc Warriors are still capable of kitting higher level PCs due to a series of buffs from some mid level Orc with levels in classes that buff like clerics, marshals, bards, and dragon shamans.

And this is relevant because...?

 

[Andor]

And this is relevant because...?

Because it's the topic under discussion? Whereas your post is relevant to what exactly?

 

[hong]

Because it's the topic under discussion?

No, my dear. The topic under discussion, or to be precise, the sub-topic under discussion, is whether the rules framework allows the existence of creatures like minions. This is entirely different to whether a random DM can throw minions into their campaign.

Whereas your post is relevant to what exactly?

Why, it is exactly as relevant to the topic as yours.

 

[Andor]

Um. Wow. The point of the minion rules, as has been claimed repeatedly in this thread, is to present an easily killed foe which still must be dealt with by the PCs because they are capable of hitting the PCs AC, and thus dealing an amount of damage that the PC cannot safely ignore. <- If you disagree with this.... I have no idea. Explain then what you think the minion rules are for.

Therefore an easily killed foe which presents a credible threat fulfills the role of the minion. Which is why this "This is flat wrong. As I pointed out before, it's perfectly possible to make an orc horde where the swarm of 1st level Orc Warriors are still capable of kitting higher level PCs due to a series of buffs from some mid level Orc with levels in classes that buff like clerics, marshals, bards, and dragon shamans." is relevant to the thread, and Bertrand Russell is not.

 

[hong]

Um. Wow. The point of the minion rules, as has been claimed repeatedly in this thread, is to present an easily killed foe which still must be dealt with by the PCs because they are capable of hitting the PCs AC, and thus dealing an amount of damage that the PC cannot safely ignore. <- If you disagree with this.... I have no idea. Explain then what you think the minion rules are for.

I think if you're going to all that trouble, you might as well use 4E. Saves an awful lot of trouble.

Therefore an easily killed foe which presents a credible threat fulfills the role of the minion. Which is why this "This is flat wrong. As I pointed out before, it's perfectly possible to make an orc horde where the swarm of 1st level Orc Warriors are still capable of kitting higher level PCs due to a series of buffs from some mid level Orc with levels in classes that buff like clerics, marshals, bards, and dragon shamans." is relevant to the thread, and Bertrand Russell is not.

Well, I do apologise for taking seriously statements like

a GM was forbidden in 3e from assigning a monster any HP or attack he pleased?
​

a 3e DM can indeed make any damm monster he wants into a minion or not for plot purposes​

Is the GM forbidden by the RAW from altering a creatures attacks and saves by assigning bonuses and penalties whether ha calls them Morale, or Insight, or Because-I-said-so?​

Orc Minion
HD: 10
HP: 1 (Because I'm the GM and I said so.)
Attk: +15 1d10+5 (Including Because I said so bonus)
AC: 32 10 base 4 armour 2 dex 16 GM said so​

Because clearly, "because I'm the GM and I said so" does not mean what I thought it meant.

 

[pemerton]

As a great admirer of Russell (my Bertrand Russell shelf in my office is about one-and-a-half metres) I have to approve of his introduction into this thread.

He is also currently in play in one of the several ongoing alignment threads (I think the CG one).

I suspect that he would have dismissed D&D as a juvenile passtime (he certainly disapproved of Wittgenstein's love of Western movies), but was nevertheless a great man, and the greatest philosopher of the twentieth century.

 

[pemerton]

Minions are still a method of putting rubber bumpers and training wheels on your encounters, in an effort to make players feel like they accomplished something by popping soap bubbles disguised as opponents.

If minions present a tactical puzzle which has to be resolved, then the players did accomplish something in defeating them.

If the minions present a thematic opportunity which the players take advantage of, then the players did accomplish something in defeating them.

If the minions represent a horde that has to be defeated, then the PCs did accomplish something in defeating them.

So whether I look at this at the metagame (gamist), metagam (narrativist) or the ingame level, your assertion makes no sense.

They are still not innovative, because it was done ad nauseum in other systems

They are new to D&D. Who has asserted that the idea is new to roleplaying?

it amounts to really nothing more than giving monsters one hit point, which was trivial to do in previous editions.

As others have said, the game rules of previous editions did not support this at all.

So, there is no skipping. "Minion rules make no sense in the game world, and you could trivially make minions in previous editions."

it Further, trying to emulate popular fiction or movies with a role playing game will ultimately lead to frustration, because they don't have the same underlying constructs. Protagonists in media don't mow through henchmen because the henchmen are fragile. They plow through because the plot requires it. The authours aren't sitting at home rolling dice to see how things turn out. If you give PCs the same total script immunity, you are no longer playing a game.

How many RPGs besides D&D are you familiar with? Even in OGL Conan, a game that is mechanically almost identical to D&D, the PCs have script immunity (via a Fate Point mechanic). I've never heard it suggested that those who play OGL Conan are not playing a game.

 

[Andor]

I give up. Communication is clearly impossible. *ahem*

4e cures cancer and brings world peace while 3e kills puppies and feeds on the tears of children.

Happy now? *facepalm*