Minions and the Iliad

[Cadfan]

A typical monster. There has to be a baseline somewhere.

Lets say a party of five is fighting five monsters. How many times, roughly speaking, treating everything as average, should each individual monster need to be hit before they all die?

I'm not trying to be sneaky. Hit points are a measure of how much you have to hit something for it to die.

 

[Jack99]

My experience with 4e has led me to the same conclusion. Not that monsters have too many hitpoints, but that the use of minions is more than necessary to keep things "realistic", at least for me.

For example: My players are now level 10. They have entered the Feywild and will soon be embroiled in a troll-eladrin war for a portal leading directly into the capital of the players' homeland (Very loosely based on King of the Trollhaunt). So when they infiltrate the Troll King's castle, they will be running into trolls, Ogres and goblins amongst others. All trolls will be normal monsters with full hit points. Ogres and Fey Goblins, will all be minions, except for a couple of boss goblins/boss ogres. This is pretty much the setup I have been using for the last 15-20 sessions, and it works great for us. Our combats are fairly quick and brutal, and they know that when a humanoid has a shitload of hitpoints, it is a significant NPC or at least a competent one, not your average joe schmoe who was just equipped with a rusty longsword and broken shield the same morning. I can't say if it would work as well for others, but I can recommend the approach.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

In theory what you need is for the pacing to work as follows:

Normal Monster/Homeric Footsoldier: lasts long enough to get killed in half a line.

Named Monster/Homeric Named Character: lasts long enough to get a good sized geneaology and metaphor in.

Somewhat Unusual Monster/Named Character: lasts long enough to exchange dialogue.

Dramatic Enemy/Pathetic Foe: you get to know the guy. words are exchanged. there are emotions. there may be some sort of debt implied on the hero for killing this generally awesome dude or lady.

The Big Villain/Foil: Oh Jesus why won't you die! We've been at this for books now!

No, really, why won't you die?

I really really want you to die!

Die, die, die, die, die!

Fine, I'm done then!

[sulk]

[action happens off screen, messenger enters stage right]

You Killed my Loyal Henchman Spearator!!!

RAGE!

[Death of Foe]

No, seriously DM, I know you have an adventure planned, but the other players and I agree that we want to spend this session mutilating this Fool's Corpse!



- - You get that timing right and you just wrote yourself DMG 3.

 

[Nikosandros]

I think you can possibly overdose on minions... but the theory is sound and is, in fact, how I'm running my Gygaxian adventures.

What would you say it's an appropriate "ceiling" for the minion ratio before it becomes excessive?

I also use "quasi-minions" which are normal creatures with half hit points. That also cuts down on the grind.

How much XP are those quasi-minion worth? Or do you handle XP more abstractly?

 

[Jack99]

I also use "quasi-minions" which are normal creatures with half hit points. That also cuts down on the grind.
Cheers!

I forgot to add in my post, that my minions do normal damage, not the flat (somewhat weaker) damage of the standard minions. While it is an extra roll here and there, it has helped make my minions (especially at higher level) much more interesting and balanced vis-a-vis the xp they give and the threat that they pose.

 

[MerricB]

What would you say it's an appropriate "ceiling" for the minion ratio before it becomes excessive?

Depends on how dangerous the minions are.

Honestly, more than 12 minions without a boss monster would be problematic. 12 minions and a boss gives an interesting fight.

Minions that do stuff when they die is really interesting, btw.

How much XP are those quasi-minion worth? Or do you handle XP more abstractly?

Half-XP. I don't use them enough so that I've noticed a problem yet.

Cheers!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am wondering if it would be easily possible to reduce hit points all across the board? Imagine every class and monster role would get 1 or 2 hit points less per level. Combat would get swingier for sure. How would it affect game balance between classes?

It definitely seems to that powers with ongoing effects - except damage - would become less useful. Powers that deal ongoing damage would be particularly deadly...

 

[Byronic]

Half-XP. I don't use them enough so that I've noticed a problem yet.

Cheers!

Wait, if they're half the xp then you would have two quasi minions for the same xp price as one standard monster.

While they would have the same HP they do have twice the amount of attacks compared to a standard monster (since they both attack)

How do you deal with this? Do they also have a lower damage rating?

 

[Pbartender]

I also use "quasi-minions" which are normal creatures with half hit points. That also cuts down on the grind.

I find that I get better results (and more believable combats) if I keep the hit points as is, but have (most) enemies start looking for a way to retreat and escape the combat once they reach "bloodied". The vast majority of creatures will not fight to the death, except under extraordinary circumstances.

It has the same effect as half hit points (ending the combat earlier), but gives me a chance to have the bad guys run away to fight another day. Plus, I don't have to mess around with altering stats. Plus, plus, if the combat turns out out a little to easy for the PCs, I can always have the monsters stick around a little longer.

 

[gizmo33]

How about a new rule:

"I am the fodder to your cannon. I throw myself head-first into one more desperate attack."

Insta-Minion: You drop yourself to 1 hitpoint, gaining +4 to attack and damage rolls. You cannot take damage from a missed attack.