Minions are alien visitors from another kind of game

[AZRogue]

It still jukes balance in favor of one class in favor of another. And I thought controllers with firebusts would actually be good at destroying hordes of minions. Instead, the opposite.

In regards to Minions dying from "misses" from fireballs, I agree that there can be a disconnect in certain situations. I think, however, that the situation will reveal what the outcome should be. The context of the encounter will tell me whether I want those Minions to appear badly burned from a missed fireball--but still standing--or whether I want them to fry because they were meant to drop like flies anyway. The context will tell me whether I want to follow the RAW or step away slightly and let damage in any form be enough to kill them.

 

[hong]

It still jukes balance in favor of one class in favor of another. And I thought controllers with firebusts would actually be good at destroying hordes of minions. Instead, the opposite.

They will still be good at destroying hordes of minions. Instead of killing 100% of the guys in the AoE, they might only kill 75%.

 

[PeterWeller]

One thing that I think 4E does, and does very well from what we've seen, is worry about what the RESULTS are on the players' side of the table WITHOUT worrying so much about how those results are reached. Which is great, since I've never had a player go through my notes after a game. They only remember what they did and how they did it and the memories they take away from the game.

I think this is a design goal and I fully support it. Instead of worrying that the internal parts match perfectly the focus is on making the results at the table important. It doesn't break down unless players are rolling their dice on the DM's side of the screen. The methods aren't the same and the mechanics have been reworked in areas with the goal of making it come together at the table.

It's a different approach, though, and I think that's bothering some people. Everyone has a different style when it comes to DMing and some of those styles evolved in very different ways. In previous editions, for instance, it was the norm for me (and those I've watched DM that are far better than I) to discover over time those rules that could be dropped by the wayside because they were pointless. You see what result the rules are trying to achieve and you just make that result happen. For instance I used to know that a tough enemy should roughly hit the highest AC in the party 50% of the time so I would subtract 10 from the highest AC and make that the enemy's BAB with no concern for hit dice, feats, or ability score. I did it with THAC0 and I did it when I ran 3E. It saves time and enriches play. It looks like 4E has a lot of that done for me and it seems like the designers play a similar style.

I couldn't agree more. I take short cuts with monster design constantly, and I'm glad to see that many of these short cuts are now part of RAW.

It bothers me that nothing actually happened.

I couldn't disagree more. If the DM says something happened, something did, in fact, happen. Whether or not any actual numbers change doesn't matter in the least.

 

[ruleslawyer]

It still jukes balance in favor of one class in favor of another. And I thought controllers with firebusts would actually be good at destroying hordes of minions. Instead, the opposite.

A fireburst is still an attack, with a lot more rolls and probably a lot less wasted damage than a single massive strike per the 3[W]+x single-target smites we've seen from the fighter and paladin. So I don't see any "juking" of balance.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Out of curiosity, where is all the info on minions? I missed it somehow.

While I'm here, two nitpicks of almost no importance:

Shadowrun effectively had minions. NPCs were given Professional Ratings, and a PR of 1 meant the NPC would surrender after taking one hit in combat. I'm not sure if the newer editions of the game have the same or a similar rule ... I haven't played in years, and the rules tend to blur together for me now.

There was one lucky member of the Crazy 88s ... the young dude who lived -- fully membered! -- to run home to mama. I doubt he took any PC class levels after that, though.

 

[hong]

Out of curiosity, where is all the info on minions? I missed it somehow.

Orc minions are in the May preview on WotC's site.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20080509a
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/MonsterManual_orcs.zip

They have 1 hp, but with the special rule that they don't take damage from missed attacks.

There was one lucky member of the Crazy 88s ... the young dude who lived -- fully membered! -- to run home to mama. I doubt he took any PC class levels after that, though.

I wouldn't say he was fully membered. The scene where he gets his member* cut to pieces by Uma Thurman was HILARIOUS.

* Yes, it LOOKS like a katana, but we all know what it REALLY is.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Can't Minions get lucky? I guess not.

Again, this is a symptom of totally missing the point.

Minions are an aid to constructing the narrative flow of the combats in a game. If you want an opponent to be lucky, then you make them an actual creature. If you want them to be unlucky, then you make then a minion.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Again, this is a symptom of totally missing the point.

Likewise.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

It still jukes balance in favor of one class in favor of another. And I thought controllers with firebusts would actually be good at destroying hordes of minions. Instead, the opposite.

Remember Controllers roll damage once and roll attacks for each affected individual.

So a controller is still great at controlling minions since he effectively gets an incredibly high number of attacks.

What he isn't is an instant win by virtue of doing some damage on a miss.

 

[Mallus]

Am I missing something, or isn't the use of minions entirely optional? A DM could use Minion Orcs... or choose to use a few 3HD Orc Pimp Daddies --or whatever they'll be called in the MM-- with full stats and abilities (like the Orcish Pimp Slap, I would imagine).

Minions rules are just a method of streamlining combats with and/or including opponents that don't pose a significant threat to the PC's, right? A DM could ignore them entirely (like I do with gnomes...).