Minions are alien visitors from another kind of game

[Irda Ranger]

Due to concerns raised in this thread I created an entire Orc tribe the other night consisting only of minions. I checked back on them this evening and, when I opened my notebook, I found them all still alive. Further studies will be needed, of course, but this initial test bodes well.

Your sarcasm is noted. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[AZRogue]

Your sarcasm is noted. Thank you for your contribution.

Yeah, but I didn't mean any harm. I just read the pages that were added since I last posted this morning (3 of them!) and can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said several times by many people. Unable to make a point that I think will push the conversation forward I revert to making myself laugh.

 

[AZRogue]

Let me make a serious post to atone for my earlier attempt at humor:


I think this whole argument concerning minions boils down to how certain people look at the rules. Some people look at the rules and are only concerned with the game that will result from them. Others look for the rules to have a certain structure all their own and are put off by that structure being manipulated. Here's a quote from Mearls to illustrate:

The most eye opening thing about the entire 4e process was how many people are what I call ideologues when it comes to D&D. The end result - whether the game is fun, interesting, and enjoyable - plays a distant second in their minds to the structure of the rules. The process, be it multiclassing, monster hit dice, or whatever, is more important than the end result of that process.

4E is making a conscious effort to be very good at the table and isn't concerned about the structure of the rules used to get there. Whether this approach appeals or not, I leave to you. I think some people who look at a game's structure before looking at how a game plays will prefer to stay with 3E or Pathfinder. I'm not sure there's a possible reconciliation other than the gameplay being so fun that they are able to look past their dislike for how the rules are structured.

 

[hong]

Because this is D&D not Diablo II. For me, as the DM, the campaign world is a living, breathing, organic whole. There is nothing shrink-wrapped about it, but rather it stretches far to the east and west, and further into ancient epochs and distant futures than even I am really aware of. As I mentioned it another thread, it's an immersion thing, and if I feel like I'm a cheap movie set I can't really enjoy myself.

So make it an expensive movie set.

 

[small pumpkin man]

I think most would agree I'm a regular here, and I have never heard this contention before.

Since there is NO mechanism in 4E that I'm aware of to model long-term injuries, I'd be interested in hearing how this is supposed to work. I can have multiple gaping wounds and a broken leg but be at full HP and have no penalties?

EDIT: I take it back. I don't want to derail my one thread. Got a link?

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4089289&postcount=5
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4155299&postcount=103
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4099433&postcount=37
http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-221339.html(search for "full hp")

I think this whole argument concerning minions boils down to how certain people look at the rules. Some people look at the rules and are only concerned with the game that will result from them. Others look for the rules to have a certain structure all their own and are put off by that structure being manipulated. Here's a quote from Mearls to illustrate:

Originally Posted by Mearls
The most eye opening thing about the entire 4e process was how many people are what I call ideologues when it comes to D&D. The end result - whether the game is fun, interesting, and enjoyable - plays a distant second in their minds to the structure of the rules. The process, be it multiclassing, monster hit dice, or whatever, is more important than the end result of that process.

4E is making a conscious effort to be very good at the table and isn't concerned about the structure of the rules used to get there. Whether this approach appeals or not, I leave to you. I think some people who look at a game's structure before looking at how a game plays will prefer to stay with 3E or Pathfinder. I'm not sure there's a possible reconciliation other than the gameplay being so fun that they are able to look past their dislike for how the rules are structured.

The problem I personally have with the current set up is that Cleave autokills an extra minion on a hit, whereas Reaping Strike doesn't do anything to them on a miss.

Now, if I run a game for my wargaming housemates you're right, they may or may not ever notice that this is how the game works, but my regular players will notice this because half of them are GMs, and I will notice this when I'm playing, maybe not every time minions come up, but because we know it works that, it will get noticed, and people will get annoyed, and put off, and pulled out of the game.

Maybe I'm being irrational, maybe the ability to never have to track minion hp is worth it, (well, okay, yes, it's definately worth some kind of break in consistancy) but I'm not impressed.

 

[pawsplay]

What'sthe capital of Belgium? Try to answer without saying "Brussels", "the place where sprouts come from" or "more than one brussel".

Minions are not an in-game concept. Hit points are not an in-game concept either, so it's not surprising that there's no in-game concept for people with one of them.

Therefore they don't exist? I can certainly describe what hit points are in-game. People certainly do have an in-game concept of "I'm alive," "I'm wounded and/or worn out," and "I'm dead." Minions who go splat do weird things to the narrative, if they go splat at inappropriate times in inappropriate ways.

What if I cast dominate and cause a housecat to kill an orc minion?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Therefore they don't exist? I can certainly describe what hit points are in-game. People certainly do have an in-game concept of "I'm alive," "I'm wounded and/or worn out," and "I'm dead." Minions who go splat do weird things to the narrative, if they go splat at inappropriate times in inappropriate ways.

I don't think it necessarily follows that having 1 hitpoint is ANY different than having 200 hitpoints in terms of how hurt, you are. That's the point. Someone at 1 hitpoint MIGHT be hurt, they might be worn out, but they might be just as fit and healthy as they were at full hitpoints. That's the point of being abstract. ALL of your hitpoints could just be luck. How do you measure in game how much luck someone has. There would be no word for it.

What if I cast dominate and cause a housecat to kill an orc minion?

This is sort of a rules question, so I can't really answer other than to say "What do you think would happen if a housecat attacked a big, strong, trained Orc?"

That's right. One doesn't need rules to know the Orc isn't afraid of it and wouldn't be hurt by it.

All I can say about this is that one of the things I've seen the designers post about again and again and the philosophy that is supposed to go with 4e is that the game has now been designed to take advantage of the fact that there is a living, breathing, and thinking person running the game. It was said that the rules of 3e were designed assuming that you would follow to the letter and they should cover all circumstances so the DM would never have to think about what SHOULD happen, just what WOULD happen using the rules.

And rather than do that again, the 4e rules are designed to cover their most common use: a party of adventurers fighting monsters. For corner cases, it is expected the DM would be around to make a decision as to what happens.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Now, if I run a game for my wargaming housemates you're right, they may or may not ever notice that this is how the game works, but my regular players will notice this because half of them are GMs, and I will notice this when I'm playing, maybe not every time minions come up, but because we know it works that, it will get noticed

You would make a fine wagons in Sendaria.

 

[Irda Ranger]

So make it an expensive movie set.

That's usually the best I can do.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Therefore they don't exist? I can certainly describe what hit points are in-game. People certainly do have an in-game concept of "I'm alive," "I'm wounded and/or worn out," and "I'm dead." Minions who go splat do weird things to the narrative, if they go splat at inappropriate times in inappropriate ways.

What if I cast dominate and cause a housecat to kill an orc minion?

Actually I think you just made a very good point. Minions do not exist. In game a 4th level minion cannot be distinguished by himself, or any other in game entity as being different from any other 4th level mob.

He is only ever a minion after he is hit, and only out of game. In game you can make up whatever fluff you want as to why he died so fast.

So its not that he is killed in one hit because he is a minion, its that he is killed in one hit, therefor he is a minion. Its effect -> cause instead of cause -> effect.