Minions are alien visitors from another kind of game

[AZRogue]

Regarding Irda Ranger's concern: yes, I think minions are aliens from a different system, but ONLY if you hold that the rules need symmetry. A minion's hit points don't scale with his BAB, AC, and damage.

The disagreement is that I don't believe symmetry or structure-aesthetics are valuable as a design goal. I would much rather have things work during play. I'm not sure whether it's possible to mollify someone searching for symmetry or aesthetics in the rules of 4th Edition; I'm not sure 4E will make any attempt to do so.

The question then becomes whether the game will be fun enough to enjoy in spite of this. I, personally, am really hoping the game is easy and fun enough that many will be able to look past the structural aspects they don't like.

 

[Jim Williams]

For me, as the DM, the campaign world is a living, breathing, organic whole. There is nothing shrink-wrapped about it, but rather it stretches far to the east and west, and further into ancient epochs and distant futures than even I am really aware of.

So, it is not enough to write out an in depth history, regional culture, or character backstory. Rather, you feel the rules need to support the narrative you've laid out? Put another way, it is disconcerting to have an NPC history that is not supported by the rules?

Well, I don't "manage" it so much as I try to understand it (I'm not a details man like Ed Greenwood). Once I do that stuff just flows naturally. And it's not work; this is my hobby as much as running adventures is. I realize that many (most?) DMs put in the minimum amount of prep time possible before running an adventure, but this is what I think about when I'm on the bus and don't have anything to read, or while I'm waiting for the elevator. Not watching much TV or following sports in the least frees up a lot of mental cycles.

By manage I meant simulate mechanically - even in the abstract.

The vibe I get from your reply is that you value time spent on the really creative stuff. I certainly don't mean to imply there is no gain from developing the story of the campaign. Quite the contrary! But the minion has no backstory. Do the mechanics under which he lives and dies (which really only come into play when the PCs step into the room) reallly need to jibe with the rest of the universe?

If so, I can understand why the minion rules as they are might rub you the wrong way. They work for me and my play-style. Ultimately, we all want to have personally rewarding experience when we play this game, so I hope you find a way to reconcile your minions.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

What if I cast dominate and cause a housecat to kill an orc minion?

The cat leaps onto the orcs head, clawing and scratching at the creatures eyes. The orc stumbles backwards and cracks his skull open on a rock.

 

[pawsplay]

The cat leaps onto the orcs head, clawing and scratching at the creatures eyes. The orc stumbles backwards and cracks his skull open on a rock.

"Man! That keeps happening. What are the odds?"

 

[pawsplay]

This is sort of a rules question, so I can't really answer other than to say "What do you think would happen if a housecat attacked a big, strong, trained Orc?"

That's right. One doesn't need rules to know the Orc isn't afraid of it and wouldn't be hurt by it.

All I can say about this is that one of the things I've seen the designers post about again and again and the philosophy that is supposed to go with 4e is that the game has now been designed to take advantage of the fact that there is a living, breathing, and thinking person running the game.

"What do you think would happen if a housecat attacked a big, strong trained Orc?" has as much relevance as "What do you think would happen if a halfling attacked a big, nasty dragon?" Either the rules can resolve a very simple combat involve two relatively common creatures, or it can't. It's fine that the GM can narrate the situation however he likes, but it doesn't speak well for the game itself.

What if instead of a housecat, we use a a goblin slave?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Goblin Slave = Sneaking up behind Orc and slitting its throat.

All these to rely on the fact that the DM first has to designate that Orc a Minion, so he is designating he will die in one "hit", as such the manner is just a means to an end. The Orc can just as easily not be a minion, since he isn't designated to die in one "hit".

To use the housecat example again, a person in normal life they may trip on their cat at the top of the stairs and roll down it. They get back up, bruised but fine they weren't designated a Minion. The person snaps their neck, they were designated a Minion.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

"What do you think would happen if a housecat attacked a big, strong trained Orc?" has as much relevance as "What do you think would happen if a halfling attacked a big, nasty dragon?" Either the rules can resolve a very simple combat involve two relatively common creatures, or it can't. It's fine that the GM can narrate the situation however he likes, but it doesn't speak well for the game itself.

What if instead of a housecat, we use a a goblin slave?

Does it involve the players? If they are involved in the battle and they are somehow using the goblin slave to attack the Orc somehow then I'd make an attack roll using the goblin slave's stats and see if I hit the Orc. If I did, then I'd have the Orc die. The PC who used his ability to control the goblin slave should get full benefit from the ability. Or if they just convinced the goblin to join them, then he's officially one of the heroes for now and gets all their benefits.

If the battle doesn't involve the PCs then I don't need rules. Rules are only there to resolve conflicts between the players and the DM. So, if the reason I need to know who wins the battle is because I know there is going to be a slave revolt and the goblin slaves are going to rise up against their orc oppressors then the way I'd resolve it is simple: I'd think, "What happens to the storyline if the uprising works? The Orcs are no longer a threat to the town and the players no longer have a threat to deal with....I don't want that to happen. The goblins lose."

 

[Shadeydm]

Well, duh.

This should really be the approach all the time. If you have an attack that can be lethal to a group of enemies and the enemies are set out in a way that you can use the attack, then use the attack.

Minions are there so that these area attacks (and other attacks) remain lethal attacks. A few opponents are wily, or lucky enough, that they can avoid the expected lethality of an attack. This is just what happens in the standard fantasy novel or action movie.

I think you left out the part about how this makes it elegant or tactically challenging snark not withstanding.

 

[Shadeydm]

"Man! That keeps happening. What are the odds?"

Yes, this just oozes elegance...

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I think you left out the part about how this makes it elegant or tactically challenging snark not withstanding.

Here's the reason it is elegant and tactically challenging:

I have 4 Minions, a Brute, a Stalker, a Skirmisher and a Controller as my encounter.

The Minions and the Brute are up front. The Skirmisher hangs slightly behind them and the Controller and Stalker being him. The Controller takes advantage of some cover in order to avoid ranged attacks. So does the Stalker who hides and waits for someone to try to get into melee with the Controller.

The Minions attempt to move to flanking positions to give Combat Advantage to the Brute and/or each other and/or the Skirmisher. Meanwhile, they block as many squares as they can in the room/hallway to prevent the PCs from just moving past them and into melee with the Controller. The Controller uses his powers on anyone who attempts to get past them.

The minions cover for each other as they drop, moving to the locations to best block the path. They need to be taken out 1 or two at a time by the Fighter in the party. Either that or the Wizard could use AoEs in order to beat them. However, not all of them will die in any one attack since some of the attack rolls will miss. Each hit, however, just drops one of them off the board immediately without needing to keep track of their hitpoints. Which is good, cause you are already remembering which powers the Controller has used already, the location of his zone power, which PC marked the Brute this round, and the location of the Stalker who you haven't put on the board yet since no one has seen him.