I was just visualising it as the minions sacrificing themselves in order to create an opening for the daemon; like grabbing the sword arm or shield. Sure they die, but their body weight impedes the PC in some manner.
Minions & PC Powers that have auto damage
- Thread starter aco175
- Start date
Oh, I get what you're talking about now and I understand. It was described as them being surrounded by a dark misasma, that when they are killed is released and flows into other nearby daemons whipping them into a bigger and bigger frenzy.
It was actually rain of steel that killed them, if it had been the Wizard (Or cleric with Turn Undead) he could have teleported, pushed or whatever them into the middle of nowhere. I always tell PCs if their damage would trigger something on a creatures death and they've got used to that. Not a lot of movement can be done from Rain of Steel though.
Infiniti2000
First Post
IMHO, if you are not having fun with minions as is I think you are running them incorrectly or simply have the wrong PC or even player makeup. If you "hide" minions from the players and they burn an encounter or, worse, a daily on a minion, you're making a big mistake. No one said that in this thread, but it has been said before. Also, the intent for a minion is to have fun. Let the player think out of the box. Try this for a houserule: a PC that expends a standard action can choose one minion to defeat automatically (kill, knock unconscious, whatever) at any time during his or her turn. So, I could move 3 squares, snap the neck of an adjacent minion, keep going 3 more squares and use a minor to heal someone. Cool, right? I spent a whole standard action just to kill a minion. Whoop-de-doo. Definitely not broken. No rolls needed, just seriously encourages roleplaying and immersion by the players. You'd be surprised how creative the players can be and they'll be begging for more minions just so they can do this sort of stuff. However, if they have an area attack, then no freebies, they have to roll. This is intended only to eliminate the inconsequential single-minion.
the Jester
Legend
This is a matter of taste. There is no one true way to run minions any more than there is a one true way to play D&D in general.
Again, it's a matter of taste, but I would never go for this myself. A pc can miss with his standard action and not kill a minion during his turn. That's why they have defenses.
Infiniti2000
First Post
True, but OnlineDM said they were boring. So, however he is running them is clearly not a good way. Either change the rules or figure out a different way to run them. Since at least some of us are having fun with the rules as is, I'd say then that his way is inferior.
Of course he can miss if you force him to roll. But, then you aren't following my point if you force him to roll or even argue that rolling against a single minion is ever a normal or necessary thing. Do your players regularly get immersed in the action? Or do they simply say things like "Does a 16 hit? I do 9 points of damage." I suspect for most people it's the latter. What my suggestion does for you though is force the former, which a majority of people will agree is a far superior "way." Then again, if you enjoy playing Accounts & Tax Returns instead of D&D, then simply numbers might be more enjoyable.
OnlineDM
Adventurer
True, but OnlineDM said they were boring. So, however he is running them is clearly not a good way. Either change the rules or figure out a different way to run them. Since at least some of us are having fun with the rules as is, I'd say then that his way is inferior.
Um, I explained that I have already house-ruled minions so that they ARE fun. You're describing a different house rule, which might also be good, but I'm quite happy with the way I'm running minions now, thank you very much!
aco175
Legend
Thank you for all the advise. I am/was having a problem visualizing killing a minion like a giant because you did random damage to someone within 5 feet or he missed when attacking you. In my mind I think that a 15th level giant 'should' have more than 1 hit point like a 1st level goblin has like 30hp.
Maybe it is in the visualizing where the assassin sideswipes your attack and stabs you in the kidney leaving you out of the fight as you bleed in the gutter. Funny, I have no problem with the fighter cleaving through one attack and hacking a minion in two.
I guess I will leave thm along for now.
Maybe it is in the visualizing where the assassin sideswipes your attack and stabs you in the kidney leaving you out of the fight as you bleed in the gutter. Funny, I have no problem with the fighter cleaving through one attack and hacking a minion in two.
I guess I will leave thm along for now.
the Jester
Legend
I guess you missed the part where I said "This is a matter of taste." If it makes you happy, by all means let the pcs auto kill minions all day. However, I would certainly argue that rolling against a single minion is a "normal" thing, as that's how it works in the rules.
Do you suppose it is just barely possible that some groups like to do both?
Again, a matter of taste. No need to get all one-true-way on me.
Whoops! Too late!
Connorsrpg
Adventurer
With you all the way Jester (and I was the one talking about 'visualising'). Just b/c we have our player 'roll to hit' (Heaven forbid) it does NOT mean our players are boring accountants (appologies to all you number-crucnhers out there).
The IDEA of the 4E minion is to have defenses and attacks that are reasonable for their level. This is so they can't be ignored, unlike in older eds where you just used lower level creatures. Anyway, I guess Jester and I are therefore not 'most' people.
@aco175 - Yeah, that was what I was getting at too. It IS hard to visualise a giant going down in one hit. So come up with better ways to visualise the giant being taken out of the fight rather than one hit (often secondary) killed.
Going back to another session, a friend DM used the XP budget perfectly to put a group against our low level party. He filled that out with an ogre minion, thinking it would be cool b/c it would be hard to hit and we would see it as the biggest threat, but when we did hit it it dropped in one go. We talked about this later and agreed this is NOT the way to use minions. We don't have a problem having players sort out minions from other 'like' creatures, but using minions of higher level creatures (especially ones that are visually strong, and ones the PCs haven't beaten before) is not the best idea. Use creatures the PCs have already killed or seem weak and can kill readily. It wasn;t a great experience when the first ogre we met (with goblins) died in one hit.
Your giant eg. I can sympathise with, but if the PCs are of a level where they have been killing giants = no prob. (Not sure if I have expressed my view clearly here...but hopefully some of you get the advice part on using minions).
The IDEA of the 4E minion is to have defenses and attacks that are reasonable for their level. This is so they can't be ignored, unlike in older eds where you just used lower level creatures. Anyway, I guess Jester and I are therefore not 'most' people.
@aco175 - Yeah, that was what I was getting at too. It IS hard to visualise a giant going down in one hit. So come up with better ways to visualise the giant being taken out of the fight rather than one hit (often secondary) killed.
Going back to another session, a friend DM used the XP budget perfectly to put a group against our low level party. He filled that out with an ogre minion, thinking it would be cool b/c it would be hard to hit and we would see it as the biggest threat, but when we did hit it it dropped in one go. We talked about this later and agreed this is NOT the way to use minions. We don't have a problem having players sort out minions from other 'like' creatures, but using minions of higher level creatures (especially ones that are visually strong, and ones the PCs haven't beaten before) is not the best idea. Use creatures the PCs have already killed or seem weak and can kill readily. It wasn;t a great experience when the first ogre we met (with goblins) died in one hit.
Your giant eg. I can sympathise with, but if the PCs are of a level where they have been killing giants = no prob. (Not sure if I have expressed my view clearly here...but hopefully some of you get the advice part on using minions).
