Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[icarusfallz]

Ultimately, minions are what they are. Cannon fodder. If you want tougher minions, have a Leader type hit them with some Temporary HP. Guess what, they will probably STILL fall in one hit.

The WHOLE point is to have lots of fun stuff to kill without a lot of bookkeeping. Kobold nests SWARM with generic little creeps, out of which crawl just a few Wyrmpriests and Dragonshields. Remember when they just had half a hit die? I do, and this is just the same thing. It's all just flavor.

Remember that the guides are just that, guides. They are toolboxes that we can use to build things. Just because it is LEGAL to burn your flag doesn't mean that I am suggesting that you DO so. (Ref. Bill Hicks... look it up, you'll be very happy or very offended. God I loved that man.)

So can we put this one to bed now, and get on to discussing something interesting? Like say.... Dragonboobs?

Note, this post is meant in good humor. I love ya all, even those of you who annoy the HELL out of me, because you make me a better gamewr in general and a better DM in specific. Thanks.

 

[Ninja-to]

I don't think it works that way.

A "minion" isn't a thing that exists, independent of the PCs, anywhere in the world. There are no free-roaming minions wandering around cities - "minion" is just a description of how the NPC or creature interacts with the PCs in combat. That's all. Of course he doesn't know he's a minion. His bodyguards also don't know they're "brutes."

As a DM, you could certainly declare that this tax collector acts as a minion in combat, but again - if you do so, you're doing so for unusual narrative reasons. "This tax collector is completely feeble in combat, and doesn't present any real threat. A good, solid blow to the head should knock him out."

He's not a minion because it's the way the world works, or because of any characteristics inherent to him. He's a minion only because the DM has determined that's how he'll interact in combat with the PCs, should said combat occur.

-O

My earlier example of the housecat was just that, one example of how pretty much anything in the game world that can do 1 point of damage could spring up in any session and really have your minions on the spot. I'd just like to have it sorted beforehand.

This is actually my main question now. "Do minions only have 1 HP when dealing directly with PC's, or the entire game world? It's an important question. If the answer is 'yes' then again, is this just an assumption or is this RAW? I haven't seen it. If the answer is 'no' then consider other situations like the following.

A good point was brought up about terrain and damage.

Let's say you have another perfectly reasonable situation.

The PC's are say, in the middle of a forest, on a hill (for no particular reason just to help with description).

Running to the PC's, are some townsfolk being chased by demonic minions, screaming 'save us' as they might do.

Between the PC's and the townsfolk are... wait for it... 'THORNY BRAMBLES'!!! Oh noes!

The townsfolk, knowing they'll get scratched and take some damage through the 15 feet of brambles (1 hit point damage per 5 feet while running, no attack roll) do so anyway, because they know they'd rather face some thorns off a bramble bush than demonic minions from the nine hells.

The townsfolk push through, albeit a bit scratched up. The PC's ready themselves for the demonic minions... who either cower at the sight of that undergrowth of minion death, or wade their way through, being destroyed by those damn bushes yet again!

In fact, if you have a battlefield where minions are part of your enemies arsenal, all you have to do is surround your troops with terrain that provides one point of damage with no attack roll and you've pretty much got in incredible advantage.

Now keep in mind, if you take the approach that 'minions are only minions when interacting with the PC's' then ok, you could almost follow that line of reasoning and get away with it but you'd have to make exceptions to this rule, and exactly how are you supposed to deal with it if you take that line? For example, in the brambles above, do you kill them off? Do you say the brambles just don't do any damage at all? If so, why? Isn't it now unfair that the PC's themselves would take damage walking through but the minions don't?

Ok go RAW and you have a very silly situation. Demonic minions can't chase your average barkeep through damaging terrain of any sort that does automatic damage. Adjust the rules on the fly and you have another problem with consistency. A 20th level minion running through brambles doesn't take damage but PC's do. Maybe not such a big deal but still slightly unfair and could have other consequences. I've got no real issues with explaining things away and roleplaying combat situations out like this for them to make sense, but RAW, the fact is, 1 HP minions unfortunately don't make sense in some situations. If I'm wrong, so be it, but if you're talking about it as RAW then please show me where it's printed. I'm sure most of us here can explain things away at the gametable, but it's the RAW that has me confused.

 

[Mengu]

This is actually my main question now. "Do minions only have 1 HP when dealing directly with PC's, or the entire game world?

The minions are NPC's that are interacting with the world. So, you get to decide what happens when they run through brambles, just like when you decided the common folk who also are minions, were scrached up but weren't killed by the brambles.

When designing an encounter, and making rules for terrain, you can easily decide, these minions don't take damage from Brambles. If you wanted, you could even give the minions a defense bonus when they are fighting within the brambles.

So my answer to your question would be, HP's only come into play when PC's are involved. I can't point to RAW, but the DMG advice for the DM deciding the outcome of NPC fights is good precedent. Some minions encounter some brambles. You decide who wins.

 

[Ninja-to]

Exactly.
If you have something that would otherwise be used as a minion wandering around by itself, it's a normal creature with level-appropriate hit points and damage. If you then place it into a combat encounter where it and several of its peers need to fill the role of minions, then it has one hit point and flat damage.

I think this is key here. But as with my example above and the dread brambles of demonic death, minions still become problematic.

I did think of a workaround though. Perhaps minions, when interacting with the environment, even in combat, have 'standard' hit points (appropriate for their level) and when being directly attacked by PC's have only 1. It still doesn't really satisfy me for some reason and I'm sure there are still issues to be dealt with, like the caltrops one someone else suggested. Hm but in the caltrops suggestion they become part of the 'world' once dropped and so wouldn't be a threat to the minion. Ugh... headache.

 

[Ninja-to]

The minions are NPC's that are interacting with the world. So, you get to decide what happens when they run through brambles, just like when you decided the common folk who also are minions, were scrached up but weren't killed by the brambles.

When designing an encounter, and making rules for terrain, you can easily decide, these minions don't take damage from Brambles. If you wanted, you could even give the minions a defense bonus when they are fighting within the brambles.

So my answer to your question would be, HP's only come into play when PC's are involved. I can't point to RAW, but the DMG advice for the DM deciding the outcome of NPC fights is good precedent. Some minions encounter some brambles. You decide who wins.

You know what, I think I've got it.

There's a hint in the rules, as RAW, as to why in fact, yes, you're supposed to make rules such as the one you came up with (minions don't take damage from brambles), and that is 'minions don't take damage on a missed attack'.

It seems as though the designers have noticed this problem themselves, and have put in a quick solution, following the reasoning that you have to make exceptions to damaging effects against minions, even for damaging effects that automatically hit.

So I think after reading through all these posts and thinking about it far longer than I hoped I would, the conclusion seems to be:

Minions only have 1 HP in regards to PC attacks.

Minions should never be grouped together with creatures/enemies vastly different in level. A lvl 20 minion with a lvl 1 Kobold should simply not exist in the game world. If it absolutely had to be there, then it should be a full lvl 20 creature with appropriate hit points, not 1HP, and in other words a TPK.

Minions, when interacting with the world and creatures, require exceptions to rules, and one is provided already in the core RAW (ie missed attacks never damage a minion). Hazardous terrain that automatically damages creatures also shouldn't damage a minion, as with any other effects the DM deems necessary.

The wording isn't all that great but I think the general idea is clear enough. In short, Minions are meant to replace mooks, ease book keeping and provide thrills in combat. They need careful attention and you can 'describe' the minions being scratched up by brambles, but they don't get 'hurt' (lose their 1HP) by it.

*When an attack seems 'weird' so that a minion just shouldn't drop dead because of it (brambles) the DM explains the creature has taken some damage. So what? Roll initiative.

 

[Ginnel]

I like minions and the way they work I think it might be interesting to have some 2 hit minions every now and then to shake it up a bit.

But when we come to 1 hit point of damage or 1D6 from a spikey bush or a 10ft drop or running through a campfire I would want the DM to handwaive it for higher level minions, by making them bloodied and even damage on a miss will kill them.

 

[Regicide]

how is it free xp? minions can actually kill party members

Minions are worth more XP for the effort to kill them than non-minions. As level increases and AE sizes get larger and easier to use and non-minion HPs rise while minion HPs effectively don't this becomes even more true.

Good things wizards aren't quite that easy to kill then, as you've conceded to in the other thread.

I conceded that lower HPs, lower AC and smaller healing surges make wizards hard to kill? Wonder what thread you've been reading.

 

[GoLu]

True.

And given that the wizard has to rely on basic melee attacks with a much lower str, his overall chance to hit is much lower. But he can still smack an epic level demon minion with his staff and kill it the same as a suped up fighter with a huge str slamming into a demon minion. That is quite a strange idea to reconcile as far as imagining it.

It's a strange idea that an attack with a lethal weapon (by an epic wizard, no less) might be deadly, although perhaps not as deadly as an attack by an even more lethal weapon wielded by an even stronger and even better skilled epic fighter?

Does it help to imagine minions as those extras in action movies who lack plot protection? (Serious question. It helped me get my head around 4e to think of it as a game that simulates action movies and, like action movies, it has a lot of cool stuff that you could easily overthink in a "hey, cars don't explode like that" kind of way.)

The townsfolk, knowing they'll get scratched and take some damage through the 15 feet of brambles (1 hit point damage per 5 feet while running, no attack roll) do so anyway, because they know they'd rather face some thorns off a bramble bush than demonic minions from the nine hells.

To be fair, we are talking about thorns which can dish out potentially lethal damage to hardy adventurers in full plate.

Ok go RAW and you have a very silly situation. Demonic minions can't chase your average barkeep through damaging terrain of any sort that does automatic damage.

Er... wouldn't your average barkeep be a minion, were he to be in a combat situation?

 

[Ninja-to]

The more I think about it, the more I like the resolution of 'DM decides whether the minion takes damage'. This is probably the intent, as I mentioned earlier with 'missed attacks never do damage' but it just isn't actually stated directly in the RAW.

One other thing regarding the posts about taking along a bunch of level 1 wizards. That's really not a problem as far as I can see. Several reasons.

1. Let the PC's take the lvl 1 wizards. Take a hundred. Then divide that encounter's xp by 100. Play that way until you're 90 years old. You might hit level 2.

2. Divide the treasure by 100 for each of those wizards. Maybe you can roleplay out of dividing treasure, fair enough. Every time some of those wizards are killed, pay that 'nominal' fee of 500gp. Go right ahead.

3. Don't like that lvl 1 wizards in the party can insta kill? Well... why not? They're PC's (or NPC's) just like the heroes. They can get lucky and kill in one hit. I don't see why that's not plausible. It goes back to the idea of hp's being abstract. Why shouldn't a PC of any level not be able to kill a creature in one blow? It's just like being coup de grac'ed. It's really no big deal. It makes sense in realism (not realistic, don't go there) that some creatures will die from being hit just once.

Also, mechanically it makes sense that yeah you can kill some minions. But pretty soon you're very likely to die too, unless the PC's (who are taking xp penalties like crazy) bail you out. Anyway, so what? You're not doing anything particularly special. At the end of the day, no matter the minion you've killed, your lvl 1 wizard hasn't taken out Asmodeus. He's killed some of his minions while being backed up by high level PC's.

So in both realism and mechanics, carrying around lowby NPC's to do their work on minions is just fine RAW. They suck up xp, can cost you lots of gold in Raise Dead, and can even be explained in combat as perfectly plausible IE yeah they can kill some minions, because they're 'heroes' just like the PC's. Anyway, so what? Why is that hard to believe? Seems just fine the way it is.

I think what most naysayers are afraid of is some PC's taking advantage of the 1HP minion. The classic example is the 1st lvl kobold and the 30th level minion.

The solutions seems fairly simple for this, as stated by others.

1. The DM should not make an encounter like this.

2. If the encounter 'happens' this way for whatever reason, the minion changes. It is no longer a 'minion' but a creature appropriate for that level.

*The above assumes the seemingly general consensus that 'Minions' are meant to be, as stated by others, a tool. They're like a random encounter table or a name generator on a PC. When babies are born in Faerun, they don't go to their notebook PC's to come up with a name for the baby. Minions are an idea for the DM to make use of. They're not creatures that walk about with 1HP.

As has been said many times, if you DM them correctly, they won't be abused in game. Encounters should never involve huge disparity between minions and their counterparts. In fact, I'd go so far as to say this is exactly what they're designed to oppose. The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil comes to mind, where you had lvl 4 or so 'mook's walking around carrying potions of healing and masterwork weapons for the PC's to pick up. These guys in droves did nothing but take up time and carry a bit of treasure. In 4th Edition these would be minions. They'd have a purpose and a role to play in combat (no pun intended). They would now have a real use. Like I said, if somehow it so happens you end up with the situation where you have that lvl 1 Kobold with a lvl 30 minion in a combat situation, DM it so that the minion drops his 'minion' status and now has full hit points. Why? Because he's no longer a minion at all. A minion is only a minion when it serves you as a DM, it's not supposed to be a creature type (again as others have said) it's supposed to be something to make your life easier to run. Period.

 

[Dausuul]

The PC's are say, in the middle of a forest, on a hill (for no particular reason just to help with description).

Running to the PC's, are some townsfolk being chased by demonic minions, screaming 'save us' as they might do.

Between the PC's and the townsfolk are... wait for it... 'THORNY BRAMBLES'!!! Oh noes!

The townsfolk, knowing they'll get scratched and take some damage through the 15 feet of brambles (1 hit point damage per 5 feet while running, no attack roll) do so anyway, because they know they'd rather face some thorns off a bramble bush than demonic minions from the nine hells.

The townsfolk push through, albeit a bit scratched up. The PC's ready themselves for the demonic minions... who either cower at the sight of that undergrowth of minion death, or wade their way through, being destroyed by those damn bushes yet again!

In fact, if you have a battlefield where minions are part of your enemies arsenal, all you have to do is surround your troops with terrain that provides one point of damage with no attack roll and you've pretty much got in incredible advantage.

Which is why such terrain does not exist. If you go through the traps and hazards in the DMG, just about everything has an attack roll involved. Take the Field of Everflame, for instance, which is an epic-level version of "this terrain is on fire." It makes an attack versus Fortitude, with half damage on a miss. And since minions take no damage on a miss, they can survive it.

If you have minions who are way higher-level than the terrain, then they won't get hit except on a natural 20.

On another note: Nothing, but nothing, should do damage if it can't plausibly kill you. Brambles might slow a character, maybe cause pain, but if you have brambles that inflict hit point damage, that's saying, "You could die as a result of walking through these brambles." Because people aren't always at full hit points. If a PC is down to one hit point (but still fully functional) and then steps into your hypothetical Brambles O' Doom, that PC is taken down to zero and may well die as a result. If you think it's stupid that people can die as a result of stepping into brambles, then brambles should not do damage, period.

Finally, in any situation involving legion devils, townsfolk are almost certainly minions too. Specifically, "Human Rabble."