Minions with 1hp - Can anyone justify this?

[Jhaelen]

Still debating?

What's so difficult to understand about minions? Hasn't the 'correct' answer been stated several times in this thread?

There are no minions.

Or to be more specific: Minions only exist if a party of an appropriate level happens to be around.

Where's the problem?

 

[robertliguori]

Only if that level 1 wizard rolls a 20. Remember, minions have level appropriate defenses, so only through the grace of "always hits on a 20" will an opponent much lower level manage to hit a minion. Note that on the other side, minions also have level appropriate attack bonuses, so the minions (and every other higher level opponents in the fight) will always hitting our hapless level 1 wizard with every attempt. Our wizard also probably be going dead last in every initiative order as well, since minions also get the same initiative bonus as all opponents.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if a level one wizard is in a high level combat, gets into melee and rolls a 20, why not let him kill the legion devil in a fluke? He's going to be dead either in this combat or another very soon.

One legion devil vs. one wizard. Let us assume that the wizard has Cloud of Daggers.

The minion attacks. The minion is incapable of slaying the wizard in one blow.

The wizard uses Cloud of Daggers. The minion's defenses are bypassed, it takes a point of damage, and auto-expires. It's not a 1-in-20 shot, it's a certainty of victory if the wizard has a particular power.

re: Real life and minions
Um, seriously, when a person gets hit by a sword, GENERALLY, they die. Sure, there are cases of people getting stabbed by a sword and not dying but that is NOT the average response.

Nor is the average case getting hit by a sword and expiring immediately. Most battle-deaths were from infection or blood loss, not trauma.

Have you ever had to joint a cut of meat? Ever try to put steel (even sharp, heavy steel) through a bunch of flesh and bone? It's not easy; try it once, and you'll be much more forgiving of the possibility of failure in Coup de Grace, especially when you factor in skin, armor, and the fact that warriors are not bred for tender meat the way domestic animals are.

Of course, I am not a trained warrior, I do not have 16 Str, and I'm wielding a meat cleaver and butcher knife, not an axe or greatsword, and I certainly do not have powers available for use. Moreover, I don't practice it; I expect that even absent all these things, a training regimen (with optional montage bardic music) could greatly increase my capacity to put a weapon through flesh and bone, either on the cutting block or the battlefield.

I don't like the fact that D&D4 cannot represent me. I don't like that my choices are either hero or extra, and that there is no room for 'can take a realistic amount of abuse before expiring'. Really, if the goal was to simplify damage tracking, I'd prefer to give minions toughness saves, a la Mutants and Masterminds; the minion makes a save with DC of some constant plus damage dealt at a bonus (or penalty) according to level. If they make the save, they live, if they fail by less than 5, they're bloodied and stunned for a round, and if they fail by more than 5, they're out. You get one extra condition with two possible states (bloodied or unbloodied, with 2x bloodied equaling defeat) per minion to track.

 

[CountPopeula]

Still debating?

What's so difficult to understand about minions? Hasn't the 'correct' answer been stated several times in this thread?

There are no minions.

Or to be more specific: Minions only exist if a party of an appropriate level happens to be around.

Where's the problem?

Don't you know that if the rules of the game world are not also the physics of the game world, the game is deeply deeply flawed. Why should we apply logic to it?

And I disagree with the assertion that minions aren't minions when the PCs aren't around. I think that pretty much everyone has 1 hp in the game world, and having more than 1 hp is being above average.

Look at all the nit picks. "It's easier to kill a minion than a door." It's also easier to cleave a skull in two with an axe than it is to bust down a wolid oak door with an axe.

The falling damage thing? Well, a fall from 10 feet can kill you, potentially, depending on how you land. And do wee need to argue falling rules again in another edition?

"Oh, anyone can just kill a minion" So? If you get hit by a sword or a flail, you're probably going to die, or at the very least, be unable to stand up and fight.

"A housecat can kill a minion." No. Just no. and rules as written... I thought we discouraged rules lawyering in this hobby? isn't the very definition of rules lawyering sidetracking a discussion by insisting the enforcement of rules in ways like this? "well, I don't see why my cat CAN'T kill the minion, it deals 1 damage."

The townsfolk and the horde of orcs? If the townsfolk can only hit on a natural 20, then they're not taking down a horde of orcs, are they? They're having a chance to fight back with the odds greatly against them, and only the heroes can heroically take down waves and waves of monsters. A single common could fell one... maybe.

As for the level one wizard vs high-level minions thing... How long does everyone plan on ignoring that you do, in fact, have to hit a minion to deal damage? Will someone please explain on someone who is, in fact, above average having a five percent chance to kill one demon/orc/whathaveyou out of twenty or more is logically inconsistent in the real world? Other than the demon/orc part. I mean, there's every chance that if me and Peyton Manning lined up and threw 100 footballs at the same time, I would throw one further than him. It doesn't change the fact that he would throw 99 further than I could.

Does anyone have any plans of explaining how minions are poorly designed when looking at the whole of the minion, including things like chance armor class and defense bonuses and attack bonus, or are we going to just get more "it only has 1 hp!"?

 

[Dausuul]

Just to check, then; it is an anomalous situation for non-appropriately-leveled characters to face legion devils. This means that minions have no existence with regards to the PCs other than level-appropriate challenges, and clever PCs will stage commando raids on hell, find it either deserted or populated only by small groups of legion devils, loot and massacre, then escape, having been strengthened from the experience. You are saying that it is inconceivable (or at least, not worth considering in the rules) that a character not an appropriately-leveled-PC will interact with the legion devils, despite the known and documented propensity for PCs to not go where and do what is expected.

The bolded part is the important one. It is not inconceivable, but it is also not worth considering in the rules. 1st-level PCs do not generally find their way into the Nine Hells without a lot of DM assistance. This is an extreme corner case.

And in the event that they do manage it, I fail to see how the ability to nuke one high-end legion devil a round is going to cause problems. The PCs are still totally, utterly, and completely hosed. What are they gonna do, sneak around looking for solitary legion devils to kill for XP? Good luck with that. Legion devils don't come individually packaged. They come in freakin' legions.

 

[GoLu]

"A housecat can kill a minion." No. Just no. and rules as written... I thought we discouraged rules lawyering in this hobby? isn't the very definition of rules lawyering sidetracking a discussion by insisting the enforcement of rules in ways like this? "well, I don't see why my cat CAN'T kill the minion, it deals 1 damage."

I agree. It's even worse when the rules lawyering misses that (1) minimum damage is 0 instead of 1 now, and (2) there are no housecat stats in the 4e core books.

But I guess this is like how the DMG contains comprehensive guidelines for building encounters which don't include facing a single minion twenty levels higher than the party, and yet that's a common point of contention when talking about minions.

 

[Lurker37]

Don't you know that if the rules of the game world are not also the physics of the game world, the game is deeply deeply flawed. Why should we apply logic to it?

Complete personal opinion, which I disagree with. Trying to simulate the physics of a world was IMO the biggest mistake 3.X ever made, due to the complexities and inconsistencies it introduced. The Devs have clearly stated in their blogs that they are not doing that this time.

And housecats don't do 1 damage anymore, since minimum damage is now 0, not 1. If you're facing a cat capable of doing 1 damage, you're facing a cat capable of killing a child quickly and a full grown man in prime health over a minute or so. Sure, it may have to scratch him a dozen or more times, but he will die. That's no ordinary housecat.

 

[Dausuul]

Complete personal opinion, which I disagree with. Trying to simulate the physics of a world was IMO the biggest mistake 3.X ever made, due to the complexities and inconsistencies it introduced. The Devs have clearly stated in their blogs that they are not doing that this time.

I think CountPopeula was being sarcastic.

 

[Obryn]

One legion devil vs. one wizard. Let us assume that the wizard has Cloud of Daggers.

Why is there a low-level wizard facing down a high-level Legion Devil?

This fails to take into account the zen of minions.

-O

 

[MrGrenadine]

I agree. It's even worse when the rules lawyering misses that (1) minimum damage is 0 instead of 1 now, and (2) there are no housecat stats in the 4e core books.

But I guess this is like how the DMG contains comprehensive guidelines for building encounters which don't include facing a single minion twenty levels higher than the party, and yet that's a common point of contention when talking about minions.

As far as as I'm concerned, the attitude "if its not in the Rulebook, then its impossible" is just as bad as rules lawyering.

Its a roleplaying game, not a computer game, and by definition the rules should be fluid and robust enough to handle whatever the players and/or DM decide they want to do.

MrG

 

[jadrax]

Its a roleplaying game, not a computer game, and by definition the rules should be fluid and robust enough to handle whatever the players and/or DM decide they want to do.

Good, because me and my players want to be able to easily fight battles against hordes of mooks.