Minor Image ruling

[MACLARREN]

I am co DMing and helping out as I can make it on the Sasserine campaign in Dungeon and just curious as to how you would rule something that occurred. Never dealt much in illusion magic as a spell caster and our one guy is running a Bequiller in this campaign. Anyhow, they were just about to be shipwrecked and the ship was getting attacked by Mashers when the character decided to throw down a Minor Image of a Scyllan in the water to try to divert and scare the Mashers away. Figured he would know about the creatures through his background and it made sense. Couldn't do much with it but good thinking. Anyhow, my first question is on the spell discription it says Will disbelief(If interacted with). What does it mean interacted with? When they try to attack the image, when they hear the minor sounds being produced by the image or whn does the interaction occurr? Also, with the spell discription it says that it can produce some minor sounds but not understandable speech. So with respect to that, a Scyllan has a Frightful Noise ability which is not speech but a wailing sound that it produces to scare things away. Is it possible for this affect to occur with the spell or not? We ruled it wouldn't because how would he know exactly what the noise sounded like if he never saw one in his career other then what he learned through his studies. I think we did it right but not sure. Big question is when the save occurs for the interaction. Thoughts?

 

[IndyPendant]

What does it mean interacted with?

Prediction: the next 5-10 posts will answer this question differently. The following 2-3+ pages will involve arguments as to why each person's answer is the one, and only one, correct answer.

In other words, there isn't really a clear definition of 'interacted with', RAW.

Is it possible for this affect to occur with the spell or not?

One thing that is clear, and should *never* be allowed by illusions such as these: they should never duplicate magical effects, period full-stop. Regardless of how well the illusionist knows the creature in question. Would you have an illusionary basilisk force a save to avoid turning into a stone statue? If not, why would you force them to suffer the Frightful Noise?

However, if they're particularly superstitious (and sailors are famous for that!), then a particularly nice GM might reward a particularly creative player by getting the sailors to run away *as if* affected. That, however, would be entirely 100% the GM's call.

 

[werk]

Just to help Indy out with his prediction...

I think 'interacted with' means any time that the illusion would need to respond to stimulus, which it is unable to do, or the world should react to it. Being shot with a harpoon, having it look like it attacks a boat or person...anything where the illusion would pass through real material rather than affecting it or being affected by it.

I would not allow the Frightful Noise, because it is a SU ability that the illusion can not generate. Would you allow the illusion of a dragon to cause dragon fear...Frightful Presence? It's not the image or the sound that creates the effect, it is the SU ability the creature possesses.

 

[MACLARREN]

I agree with what you both said here on the frfightgful fear effect and see it the same way. Still just one of those spells that are not very clear in my opinion.

 

[pallandrome]

"Interacted with" as I understand it, coincides with Werk's estimation. Merely sensing the illusion is not enough, otherwise merely seeing it would do the trick. "Interacting with" suggests an affempt to affect change in the illusion, via attacking it, casting a spell on it that would change it in some way, pushing on it (but not merely touching it, as touch is just another sense), or even attempting to convince it of something (in the case of illusions powerful enough to mimic speech).

And no, illusions of monsters can't mimic special abilities. Unless they are shadow illusions that is, such as can be found with the shadowcraft mage, or shadowcrafter, but thats a whole 'nother ball o worms.

EDIT: A can which I will gleefully open! So, if one is both a shadowcraft mage, and a shadowcrafter, then Shades will count as "120% real". Leaving us with the question, how many hit points does a creature crafted by the spell have? Does it have MORE hit points if disbelieved?

 

[Mistwell]

EDIT: A can which I will gleefully open! So, if one is both a shadowcraft mage, and a shadowcrafter, then Shades will count as "120% real". Leaving us with the question, how many hit points does a creature crafted by the spell have? Does it have MORE hit points if disbelieved?

That is an entirely different thread. I think the answer is yes (and the WOTC have an extensive discussion of this subject with a Shadowcraft Mage from Races of Stone), but even if folks disagree with that, it's so far off topic that it would really be a disservice to this poster to have his thread become a discussion of the reality of shadow spells when they go over 100% reality when disbelieved.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I interpret "interact with" in that you are doing something to directly try to affect the illusion. More often than not, this is done by attempting to attack it, cast a spell on it, or touch it in some way (or try and walk through it). I allow the caster to manipulate the illusion in such a way that if the illusion were to interact with an actual object, it looks like it is doing exactly that (assuming it is within the area of the illusion).

 

[IanB]

One sort of wonders if being underwater hurts the chances of a minor image being successful, since it won't be displacing any water and thus won't be producing the sort of vibrations and things that aquatic creatures can often detect (like fish do, via the lateral line organ.)

 

[RigaMortus2]

One sort of wonders if being underwater hurts the chances of a minor image being successful, since it won't be displacing any water and thus won't be producing the sort of vibrations and things that aquatic creatures can often detect (like fish do, via the lateral line organ.)

From a purely visual standpoint, I don't see why the caster wouldn't be able to control the illusion so that it looks like the water is displaced within his illusion. I agree, something with a sonar ability might be able to see through the illusion however.

 

[IanB]

From a purely visual standpoint, I don't see why the caster wouldn't be able to control the illusion so that it looks like the water is displaced within his illusion. I agree, something with a sonar ability might be able to see through the illusion however.

It isn't a question of looks; fish and some other aquatic animals actually detect the movements of water with a special sensory organ (usually called the lateral organ.) It isn't sonar - that is something else entirely.

In game terms I guess the lateral sense would probably be closest to tremorsense, although it shouldn't be that powerful.