Minor Spycraft Gripe

buzzard

First Post
While I certainly enjoy the rules for the system, and am looking forward to playing in Living Spycraft and running my own game, I do have a bit of a gripe. Why did they get the gun stuff wrong?
I'm a fairly low level gun enthusiast, but I found a bunch of errors in the Modern Arms guide. Many of these would have been avoided with a bare minimum of research. I will end up having to fix a fair amount of stuff for my home game just so this doesn't annoy me. Is there some erratta out there which adresses that book?

buzzard
 

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buzzard said:
While I certainly enjoy the rules for the system, and am looking forward to playing in Living Spycraft and running my own game, I do have a bit of a gripe. Why did they get the gun stuff wrong?
I'm a fairly low level gun enthusiast, but I found a bunch of errors in the Modern Arms guide. Many of these would have been avoided with a bare minimum of research. I will end up having to fix a fair amount of stuff for my home game just so this doesn't annoy me. Is there some erratta out there which adresses that book?

I'm not a gunbunny myself, but Jim Wardrip, who contributed to the book, is quite knowledgable WRT gunes IME.

Jim hangs out on the spycraft boards and occasionally here and has his own website where he puts out free PDFs with newer gun data. Perhaps he could address some of your concerns. His website is at http://www.jimwardrip.com/gaming/rpg.htm .

The spycraft boards have some errata posted in a sticky topic, but I forget if there was any errata and if so how extensive it was, and I can't seem to get to the spycraft boards right now (but I can get to the alderac page though... which is wierd. Why is that Morganstern?)
 

I'm not sure, Psion. I handle web-support material for the site, not actual code :(.

As to factual errors in the MAG, we did an awful-lot of research, but there were some errors that I know about (now) that slipped through. You have to be a bit more specific if you want them addressed (which I'll be happy to do :) ). We keep a pretty good sized errata document on the boards, not because we're sloppy, we just like to deal with anything that does come up in a forthright manner. If you have better info, I'd be glad to incorporate it 8).
 

Morgenstern said:
I'm not sure, Psion. I handle web-support material for the site, not actual code :(.

As to factual errors in the MAG, we did an awful-lot of research, but there were some errors that I know about (now) that slipped through. You have to be a bit more specific if you want them addressed (which I'll be happy to do :) ). We keep a pretty good sized errata document on the boards, not because we're sloppy, we just like to deal with anything that does come up in a forthright manner. If you have better info, I'd be glad to incorporate it 8).

Ok I'll go down the ones that immediately come to mind and bother me.

For some reason MAG decided that a 9mm would do more damage than a .40 S&W (same average, but higher max for the 9). This is illogical and unsupported by what studies do exist on this topic. Logically the .40 should be rated as more damaging since it can duplicate or exceed any muzzle energy produced by the 9mm, and will create a hole 25% larger. Given than handgun rounds are way too slow to even consider hydrostatic shock, the deciding factor in damage should be the size of the wound cavity. Thus, a .40 S&W will always exceed the 9mm.

One other detail, the HK UPS in .40 S&W has a 13 round magazine (I know since I have one, having bought it pre-ban). The Sig Sauer P220 in .45 ACP is listed as having 9 round magazines, but it only has 7 in reality. I'd have to check Gun Digest to see if the rest are correct. I only list these because I own them.

Then there's the ammo types. Those rules have a couple glaring holes. They are with three of the ammo options.

Hydrashock- there is no steel post in the center of a Hydrashock. The post is cast into the lead of the bullet and is merely supposed to make it mushroom (expand) better. If there were a steel post in the center they would be illegal for civilian purchase, and I do have a few boxes.

Winchester SXT (Black Talon)- this ammo description sounds like a technical document published by HCI, and is equally accurate. These rounds do not expand into viscious slashing claws as stated. The lead remains bonded to the jacket, so you really don't get any sharp edges. Also the very rules involved are, how best to delicately state this- stupid. According to the rules if you are shot by these they act like wounding weapons, but only for vitality. For wounds, you only bleed for one extra round. Now as I understand it, vitality means you've dodged. Thus how can it be that a bullet which has been dodged causes continued vitality damage? Does it follow you around and keep tiring you out?

Then, last but not least silly, you have the wad cutter description. It rambles on some nonsense about the shape of the bullet tail and then makes them more accurate, but less damaging. Of course reality has nothing to do with this. Wad cutters (also known as full wadcutters, since there is such a thing as a semi-wadcutter) are bullets, usually cast in lead, which are shaped like a cylinder. They have a flat front end, and a flat or sometimes concave rear end. They are designed to punch nice neat holes in paper targets. They are also usually shot only in revolvers (though there are some semi-autos which are designed to shoot them). If anything they would do more damage than normal ammo. They would certainly not do less, or be more accurate.

Another gripe would have to be the recoil rules. They are excessive. By the calculations in the book I would have to have a 16 or higher strength to shoot like I do, and I don't go to the gym that much.

The takedown rules are also fairly silly. They seem to ignore conservation of momentum, and make it WAY too easy to knock someone down. Then again I can at least accept them on the basis of trying to capture cinematic feel.

buzzard
 

Psion said:
I'm not a gunbunny myself, but Jim Wardrip, who contributed to the book, is quite knowledgable WRT gunes IME.

I worked on the MAG but not the area in question and unfortunately wasn't given the opportunity to see the firearms material before it went to print. I haven't worked on any Spycraft related material in quite a while and I don't think there's any Spycraft material remaining on my website.

Your best bet would be to check out the Spycraft board when it comes back up, look for and individual named Jaeger there and contact him. He's the person in charge of the weapon's the last time I checked.

If that doesn't resolve all your problems, e-mail me and I'll see if I can find my personal Spycraft/MAG material and send it to you if I haven't deleted all of it.

Molon LABE!
Jim Wardrip
 

Now to be fair to Spycraft I should mention that I did take a look at the D20 Modern section on weapons just for the sake of comparison. Dear god, what a mess! Who wrote that tripe? I mean just from a very cursory examination one glaring idiocy stands out- rifles have a lower range increment than the bows in D&D (though they did lower the range increments for the bows in this system). also a machine gun firing an identical cartridge has a lower range increment than the sniper rifle of the same caliber. I haven't bought the book (and likely won't), but it didn't take any time to notice how bad this was.

buzzard
 

Oh, great. :rolleyes:

You want to address your problem to Charles Ryan and Rich Redman regarding the d20 Modern ruleset as well as the recent Ultramodern Firearms d20?

Honestly, if you're not satisfied, here's three little words: DO IT YOURSELF.

AFAIC, reality has no business being in role-playing games. Maybe in a historical simulation game, but not RPG. Still, to each his or her own.
 

Ranger REG said:
Oh, great. :rolleyes:

You want to address your problem to Charles Ryan and Rich Redman regarding the d20 Modern ruleset as well as the recent Ultramodern Firearms d20?

Honestly, if you're not satisfied, here's three little words: DO IT YOURSELF.

AFAIC, reality has no business being in role-playing games. Maybe in a historical simulation game, but not RPG. Still, to each his or her own.

Well I guess common sense doesn't have much place either eh?

I will DO IT MYSELF, when it comes to Spycraft (for my home game there will be house rules). I will skip D20 Modern because it doesn't appeal to me. My complaint was about something which are apparently stupid. Anyone who has shot a rifle would know it was stupid. Sure, it is a roleplaying game, but it still has to model reality somewhat. Why else would they go to the trouble of listing off a wide variety of weapons?

buzzard
 

Well can you honestly say the archaic and historical weapon d20 stats are modeled after our real-world versions, and therefore correct?

Or that the health systems (d20M HP and VP/WP) correctly translate real injury and trauma?

As for the weapon's range, I guess there are two ways to debate this: can a shooter effectively shoot at a distance accurately while they're being shot at, compared to shooting said firearms at the same distance with the same accuracy in a test environment? Did they deliberately reduce the range increment to take into account the Far Shot feat, or allow that feat extend the weapon's range far beyond their real-world tested data?

Of course, let us not forget the scope and sight. Do they provide game benefits that increases the chance of an accurate hit?

BTW, common sense doesn't work well when there is no real-world application of FX elements (magic, psionics, co-existing with nonhumans). Only plausibility.

Sorry for rambling.

P.S. I look forward to your corrected stats of modern firearms.
 

Ranger REG said:
Well can you honestly say the archaic and historical weapon d20 stats are modeled after our real-world versions, and therefore correct?

So because D&D has some lousy weapon stats D20 Modern should have lousy weapon stats?

Ranger REG said:
Or that the health systems (d20M HP and VP/WP) correctly translate real injury and trauma?

Within the style of the simulation, WP/VP is reasonable given the level of complexity desired. More accuracy can mean more complexity. However within a given level of complexity one should strive for accuracy. One should not use information which is blatantly wrong.

Ranger REG said:
As for the weapon's range, I guess there are two ways to debate this: can a shooter effectively shoot at a distance accurately while they're being shot at, compared to shooting said firearms at the same distance with the same accuracy in a test environment? Did they deliberately reduce the range increment to take into account the Far Shot feat, or allow that feat extend the weapon's range far beyond their real-world tested data?

If you knew anything about real world weapons and looked at those stats you wouldn't even ask these questions.

Let me give you a few nice concrete examples of blatant inaccuracy to sink your teeth into.

In the D20 Modern SRD it lists the Barret Light .50 Sniper rifle as having a range increment of 120 feet (mind you, this is about that of a composite longbow in D&D). This is a weapon which can make a hit at a mile(or farther). That's 5280 feet. Range increments for firearms go out to 10 times the base, which is deemed maximum range. Thus they are off by about a factor of 4, add far shot and you are still off by a factor of 3. The national rifle matches at Camp Perry in Ohio are held at 1000 yards. This is with 7.62 mm NATO or 5.56 NATO rifles. Range increments for weapons in there calbers is 90. Add far shot and we get to 135. This gives a max range of 1350, or about 450 yards. People compete at more than twice this distance.

Snipers in Afghanistan were recorded as making shots (needless to say, in combat conditions) at 1200 yards with .300 Winchester Magnum rifles.

Ranger REG said:
Of course, let us not forget the scope and sight. Do they provide game benefits that increases the chance of an accurate hit?

They don't increase maximum range do they? They weren't listed in the same section as the weapons. In Spycraft they essentially halve the range penalty at any given range.

Ranger REG said:
BTW, common sense doesn't work well when there is no real-world application of FX elements (magic, psionics, co-existing with nonhumans). Only plausibility.

OK well I view plausibility and common sense as congruent in many cases. However easily verifiable facts not used in a game defies common sense. Rifles do not constitute magic. Of course with the accuracy of the D20 stats, they might as well be magic bang sticks.

Ranger REG said:
Sorry for rambling.

Isn't that why we're here?

Ranger REG said:
P.S. I look forward to your corrected stats of modern firearms.

Right now I am working on the stats of weapons from the 30's for the living style Pulp game we play out here in Colorado. I will certainly be willing to post that if it is desired. Most of what I see in Spycraft seems pretty good (vis a vis range increments in particular). My beefs with them is the silly ammo types and a few particular weapons. This weekend I will probably pick up one of those gun encyclopedias at Barnes & Noble to verify I have everything right in my Pulp stats.

buzzard
 

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