Minotaurs and CL/LA

[Trainz]

One of my players is interested in playing a minotaur in my next campaign.

As I understand it, if he plays a first level fighter, his character level would be 9 (1 for fighter level, 6 minotaur hit dice, and 2 LA), but he doesn't care for the 6 minotaur "critter" levels.

Is it possible, by the rules, to let him create a 1st level fighter, equivalent to a 3rd level character (for the 2 LA), without the minotaur levels ? Of course, he would loose all minotaur level dependant benifits (feats, and accumulated skill ranks).

So ?

 

[mikebr99]

A Minotaur is already LA - +2

MINOTAURS AS CHARACTERS

Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits.
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— +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma.
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—Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks,
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lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
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—Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
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—A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
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—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
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—Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack
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bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
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—Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 x​

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.(2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its
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class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen
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checks.
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—Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
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—Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
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— +5 natural armor bonus.
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—Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
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—Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
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—Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
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—Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
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—Favored Class: Barbarian.
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—Level adjustment +2.
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[Camarath]

Is it possible, by the rules, to let him create a 1st level fighter, equivalent to a 3rd level character (for the 2 LA), without the minotaur levels ?

I do not believe the rules as written allow one to drop a creature's Racial Hit Dice when making a PC.

As the DM you are free to allow him to do so if you wish but that is not one of his default options. You might want to increase the LA (to maybe +3 or so) if you allow him to drop his Racial Hit Dice. There is also a minotaur race in the Dragonlance CS that does not have Racial Hit Dice or LA.

 

[Trainz]

A Minotaur is already LA - +2

Ok, that doesn't quite answer my question. I already stated that minotaurs are LA 2.

But thanks for the copy-n-paste of the table, it will be useful in this thread for the discussion.

 

[Trainz]

I do not believe the rules as written allow one to drop a creature's Racial Hit Dice when making a PC.

As the DM you are free to allow him to do so if you wish but that is not one of his default options. You might want to increase the LA (to maybe +3 or so) if you allow him to drop his Racial Hit Dice. There is also a minotaur race in the Dragonlance CS that does not have Racial Hit Dice or LA.

Mmm... I do not own or play anything in DL, so that won't help.

Increasing LA... what kind of formula is there to achieve this (besides minotaurs) ?

 

[Camarath]

Mmm... I do not own or play anything in DL, so that won't help.

Increasing LA... what kind of formula is there to achieve this (besides minotaurs) ?

There is no hard formula for this you have to do what seems apporate for your game. Basicly you have to recalculte the creature's LA because racial HD are less powerful than class levels and so replacing racial HD with class levels will most likely make the PC more powerful than other PCs of the same ECL. Thus you try to find the LA that makes the Minotaur as powerful as other PCs of the same ECL.

 

[Trainz]

There is no hard formula for this you have to do what seems apporate for your game. Basicly you have to recalculte the creature's LA because racial HD are less powerful than class levels and so replacing racial HD with class levels will most likely make the PC more powerful than other PCs of the same ECL. Thus you try to find the LA that makes the Minotaur as powerful as other PCs of the same ECL.

Would you say a ratio of 1 for 3 sounds good ?

For example, a minotaur has 6 hit dice, so by increasing his LA by 2 (6 divided by 3) would make him LA 4...

?

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

+4 would probably be the best bet. Even with that, I could see a very overpowered character resulting from this choice. Large size, NA, strength bonuses, constitution bonuses, and a bonus natural attack make the Minotaur a practically perfect choice for any melee character. The racial hit dice are there to balance the creature out, so be aware even with the increased LA it can work out to be overpowered. Just depends on how willing the player in question is going to be in abusing it.

 

[Camarath]

Would you say a ratio of 1 for 3 sounds good ?

For example, a minotaur has 6 hit dice, so by increasing his LA by 2 (6 divided by 3) would make him LA 4...

?

If your player goes with a character build that takes advantage of the Minotaur bonuses (any melee build) then LA +4 sounds about right but if he picks a build that does not (like a caster) you might want go with LA +3.

Also other typres of racial HD would be worth different amounts of LA IMO Dragon and Outsider HD are worth the most; then Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid HD, then Aberration, Animal, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Plant, and Vermin; then Construct, Ooze, and Undead HD are worth the least. Fey HD may be worth more than the other HD types in its group depending on the creature abilities and how much benefit the 6/level skill points are to the creature.

 

[Trainz]

+4 would probably be the best bet.

If your player goes with a character build that takes advantage of the Minotaur bonuses (any melee build) then LA +4 sounds about right

Do you guys mean +4 over the normal +2 of the base minotaur (for a total of LA +6), or do you mean an adjusted LA total of +4 (INCLUDING the base LA +2) ?