Minotaurs and CL/LA

[Spatula]

What Camarath said. The LA of +2 assumes the suboptimal racial HD; remove the HD and the LA needs to be raised. +4 sounds like it might be okay - that's a lot of lost HD for a fighter-type (although doesn't matter as much as your level increases) but there's also a lot of benefits (Large size, unbalanced stat adjustments, natural armor, natural attacks that can be used with weapons, a special attack, and a minor special defense).

EDIT: that's a total LA of +4, naturally.

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

Yes, LA+4. I still doubt it will be very balanced, but it's as close as you're going to get it. I doubt many 20th level Human Fighters will have a chance against a well built Minotaur 16th level Fighter, but if you raise it any higher than +4, he will have too much of a handicap early on.

 

[James McMurray]

What about letting him play a Minotaur class? I don't remember if there is one in Savage Species or not. That's the only way I'd allow it in my campaign.

 

[Trainz]

That's a lot of rapid and useful feedback you guys gave me. I appreciate it.

At LA +4, if I make a 10th level adventure, the player would still get to play a 6th level fighter minotaur. I think he would be agreable to this, and enjoy it.

Thanks !

 

[Artoomis]

LA+2 is fine. Let's anayze what he really gets as a Minotaur with no Hit Die:

— +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma.

— Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.

— Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.

— A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.

— Darkvision out to 60 feet.

— Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listenchecks.

— +5 natural armor bonus.

— Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).

(I'd eliminate the Special Attack: Powerful charge and Special Qualities: Natural cunning - they seem kind of tied to the hit die to me) )

— Special Qualities: Scent.

— Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.

— Favored Class: Barbarian.

— Level adjustment +2.

Compare this to other races that use a +2 and I think you will find it roughly comparable.

A half-dargon is +3 and it gets:

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2.

Among quite a few other things.

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

Apparently you have not seen what a size Large character can do, especially with such high statistical bonuses to other fighting attributes. +4 is being generous, believe me. It really depends on how much the player is willing to abuse the combinations possible, but +4 is well within reason even if he doesn't.

 

[Camarath]

Compare this to other races that use a +2 and I think you will find it roughly comparable.

Could you point out some races that have similar bonuses for LA +2 with no racial HD? The Half-dargon is LA +3 with roughly equal bonuses to the Minotaur other than the Minotaur's Large size which IMO is worth an additional +1 to the creatures LA.

This is how I think it LA vs abilities should work out.

- +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma.
[LA +1]

- Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
[LA +1]

- +5 natural armor bonus
- Special Qualities: Scent
[LA +1]

- Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8)
- Powerful Charge
- Natural Cunning
[LA +1]

Total LA +4

 

[Will]

Maybe divide all the benefits by 8, and let him get a fraction each time he takes a minotaur HD?

 

[Trainz]

Maybe divide all the benefits by 8, and let him get a fraction each time he takes a minotaur HD?

Nah... we're starting the game at around 10 anyways, so it would be more trouble than anything.

And I agree with the posters that say that Large size has a deep impact. I think he intends to go the Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip/Spiked Chain/High Strength/High Dex way.

That combo will leave some marks. BIG ones.

Plus, his +5 natural armor STACKS with an Amulet of Natural Armor. With magical breast plate and rings of protection and ring of deflection...

*shudder*

Yup, LA +4 M.I.N.I.M.U.M.

 

[Camarath]

And I agree with the posters that say that Large size has a deep impact. I think he intends to go the Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip/Spiked Chain/High Strength/High Dex way.

In that case I think you might want to be bit more draconian and go with LA +5 since he is eking all the benefit he can out of the race. That or make him take the Racial HD. But it all depends on your game and what style of play you have and what the other player or going to make.