Minotaurs and CL/LA

[Will]

We're talking about 4 feats, 6 hit points, an increase in size, a special attack, darkvision, scent, natural cunning, +8 Str, +4 Con, -3 Int, -2 Cha.

 

[Trainz]

We're talking about 4 feats, 6 hit points, an increase in size, a special attack, darkvision, scent, natural cunning, +8 Str, +4 Con, -3 Int, -2 Cha.

No we're not.

We are discussing removing the critter's racial hit dice, and replacing it with an LA adjustment.

Wether you keep or remove those racial hit dice, size remains the same, special attacks remain the same, darkvision remains the same, scent remains the same, natural cunning remains the same, stat modifiers remain the same.

 

[Trainz]

As well as -2 Fortitude -5 Reflex -5 Will saves. You are right I think any LA greater than +4 would be unfair to the player.

I didn't notice those... mmm...

When all is said and done, maybe the player should just accept the racial hit dice. After all, he's only going to miss 4 feats and 6 hit-points. Actually, that's 3 feats, because as soon as he takes 2 fighter levels, he gains two fighter feats.

 

[Camarath]

I didn't notice those... mmm...

When all is said and done, maybe the player should just accept the racial hit dice. After all, he's only going to miss 4 feats and 6 hit-points. Actually, that's 3 feats, because as soon as he takes 2 fighter levels, he gains two fighter feats.

Monstrous Humanoid HD are pretty nice for Fighter type characters. Other types of HD such as Giant HD can be much more of a burden.

 

[Will]

Woops! I'm sorry.

Teach me to skim!

Using the Class Calculator (which has made an appearance now and then online), and assuming you agree with it's general logic, a HD of monstrous humanoid for a minotaur is worth roughly 2/3 that of a PC class.

This suggests 6 HD + 2 LA is the same as a total of 7 LA.

A minotaur HD gives 1 better save than a fighter, with about 1 less hit point and down about 1/2 a feat (averaging).

Personally, I go the other way. I'd much rather have HD than LA, because of the weirdness of 'My HD is lower than my effective level.'

Going the other way, I'd make a minotaur with 9 monstrous humanoid HD have 0 LA.

 

[Artoomis]

— Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.

Plus it allows the use of larger weapons (more damage, potentially even more reach, bonuses to disarms, harder to sunder).

A half-dragon is +3 and it gets:

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2.

Among quite a few other things.

Nothing very incredible when applied to one of the regular PC races, though.

Okay, then, a more complete analysis, and see if the Half-Dragon at +3 is better than a base (no hit die) Minotaur.

--

H-D: Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves.

M: Size is large. Type is Monstrous Humanoid.

Dragon type can be quite valuable, but so can being large (both have disadvantages as well) Call this one in favor of M

--

H-D: Hit Dice: Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

M: No change in HD.

Major advantage to H-D.

--

H-D: Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +4.

M: Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +5.

Obviously advantage to M.

--

H-D: Natural Weapons: 2 Claws 1d4, 1 bite 1d4.

M: Natural Weapons: 1 Gore 1d8

Advantage to M when using weapons, advantage to H-D for flexibility - call it a draw.

--

H-D: Special Attack: Breath weapon
M: None (unless you keep the special charge, which I do not recommend for a no-HD M))

Clear advantage to H-D

--

H-D Immunities: Sleep. paralysis, plus one energy or acid
M: None (unless you keep the Maze and flat-footed immunity)

Clear advantage to H-D

--

H-D: Special Qualities: Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
M: Darkvision out to 60 feet and Scent

Scent is nice - give this one to M

--

H-D: Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2.

M: Abilities +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma.

H-D is wayyyy better.

They are fairly similar in raw power if you do not count the stat adjustments. The stat adjustments are about 1 level difference (+10 physical, +4 mental, vs. +12 physical, -6 mental) Using the 2-for-1 mental-to-physical ratio, that's +14 vs. +9 - I think that would be worth at least +1 ECL, which is, indeed, the difference between a H-D and M.

Stick with +2 LA. +3, if you leave in all abilites and you really feel +2 is too low. Not +4, though - that too high.

 

[Spatula]

H-D: Hit Dice: Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

M: No change in HD.

Major advantage to H-D.

If you have racial HD. Which means no advantage to either in this case.

H-D: Special Attack: Breath weapon
M: None (unless you keep the special charge, which I do not recommend for a no-HD M))

Clear advantage to H-D

The breath weapon is nice but can only be used 1/day. Why would you get rid of the charge attack?

H-D Immunities: Sleep. paralysis, plus one energy or acid
M: None (unless you keep the Maze and flat-footed immunity)

Why would you remove them?

H-D: Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2.

M: Abilities +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Charisma.

H-D is wayyyy better.

Better overall, but the Int and Cha bonuses (or penalties) don't mean a whole lot for most fighter-types. For a pure brute, the minotaur's stat adjustments are actually better unless you're playing a half-dragon half-orc.

They are fairly similar in raw power if you do not count the stat adjustments.

...as long as you ignore that the Minotaur is large and the half-dragon is not.

 

[Camarath]

Stick with +2 LA. +3, if you leave in all abilites and you really feel +2 is too low. Not +4, though - that too high.

Why are you removing abilities? Do you feel that is necessary to prove that the Minotaur is weaker than the Half-Dragon?

Also I believe you are you are strongly undervaluing the advantages of Large size and the Scent ability. In no way does being a Dragon balance out being of Large size especially if the creature is already non-Humanoid creature with no racial HD. Scent is at least as powerful as Immunity to Sleep and Paralysis. Powerful Charge is roughly as powerful as the Breath weapon IMO since it has unlimited use and the Breath weapon is 1/d. Natural Cunning is IMO as strong as one Energy Immunity as it prevents one from being caught flat-footed or ever becoming lost, give Immunity to Maze spells, and enables one to track enemies (thus providing a nice synergy with Scent). Also the Minotaur gains a racial +4 to Search, Spot, and Listen checks which to some extent helps balance out it's slightly lower stats.

So unless you start cutting abilities to bring the Minotaur down below the Half-Dragon I believe what you find is that the Minotaur is as powerful as the Half-Dragon in almost every way and then is Large size on top of that thus IMO the Minotaur should have a higher LA than the Half-Dragon.

 

[Darklone]

So unless you start cutting abilities to bring the Minotaur down below the Half-Dragon I believe what you find is that the Minotaur is as powerful as the Half-Dragon in almost every way and then is Large size on top of that thus IMO the Minotaur should have a higher LA than the Half-Dragon.

Effectively, the Savage Species mino has a higher LA... his racial HD aren't that great (I'd rather have 6 rangerlevels).

Is the dragonlance mino OGL and if yes, could someone post it?

 

[Camarath]

Is the dragonlance mino OGL and if yes, could someone post it?

I do not think it is OGL. However here is an abbreviated version that I hope is understandable and not too much of a copy right violation
(Str+4Dex-2Int-2Cha-2;NA+2;Gore1d6;GoreCharge2d6[Strx1.5];+2Intim,Swim,URope;Scent[cantakeasfeat];FC:Fighter).