Miracle again

[Doorf]

Can anyone give any examples what can be done by miracle other then duplicate spells without paying 5000exp, assuming that this effect is in line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature.

From phb:
Few are:
-8th spell level you can cast (as cleric)
-7th spell level you can't cast (as cleric)
-undo a harmfull effect
-"Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects. "

Wish by itself seems less powerfull then those 'less powerfull' requests miracle can accomplish.
Ex.
20th wizard specialist/20th cleric can't wish for 6th level druidic spell from his prohibited school, while same NPC can cast similar druidic spell from prohibited school even from 7th level using Miracle.

Still assuming that all effect listen in similar way as similars effects seems wrong, i mean wish with list of 11 effect that starts with 3 same effects as starts miracle (with one less powerfull that "small effect of miracle").

Definitly increasing ability scores without paying 5000exp seems very wrong.

Under Limited wish as one of "effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" is -7 to save vs one spell or Automaticaly hiting on next attack roll.
All primary effects of Limited wish seems much smaller then the "NO exp" version of miracle.

Coming back to main question. Please give your ideas/examples what can be done by miracle without paying Experience. How did you cast miracle as PC, or ruled it as DM, since PHB is not very 'user friendly' book when it comes to examples (IMHO).

 

[Doorf]

bump.

 

[Doorf]

Someone with ideas please.

 

[gfunk]

Can anyone give any examples what can be done by miracle other then duplicate spells without paying 5000exp, assuming that this effect is in line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature.

As you stated yourself (from the PHB):
"A miracle can do any of the following:

1. Duplicate any cleric spell of up to 8th level (including spells to which the character has access because of the character's domains).
2. Duplicate any other spell of up to 7th level.
3. Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
4. Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects. "

That seems crystal clear to me, what is the problem?

It is not necessary to balance this spell with Wish. I mean, both descriptions are very clear. You seem to think that Wish is less powerful than Miracle b/c of the always required 5000 XP cost. I'm inclined to agree with you.

I think it is very clear that using Miracle for permanent ability score increases would incur the 5000 XP cost. I mean what spell of 8th level or less can give you an inherent bonus to any ability score? None.

Other than that, anything goes. Clearly, Miracle should be able to accomplish what is possible with Limited Wish -- if only due to the fact that it can emulated Limited Wish.

 

[Sarevok]

I don't think that Miracle is more powerful than Wish.
To cast Miracle you need to do something that you god allows (and they surely will not allow you to do many things like "I want to use Miracle to cast this spell because it is cool and I will gain some money if I kill this guy"). With Wish you don't need permissions from a god, your mom or whatever, you do what you want to do. This is a huge difference, and anyone that role-played a cleric know this. There is another point : Miracle is boring, gods are boring and clerics are boring.

Boring Cleric : "I will heal the disease of this poor man in the name of [boring god's name]. Casts boring Remove Disease.
Wizard : FIREBALL! FIREBALL! FIREBALL! [Demented Laugh] and FIREBALL!.

Sorry but clerics are so... boring.


[Removed a part that was in very poor taste - and gratuitiously so, at that.
- Darkness.]

 

[Asmo]

Posted by Sarevok:

(Something awful)

Please watch your language. This is not what I want to see on the messageboards. Keep it civilized.

Asmo


(I just cut out the quote... Thank you!
- Darkness)

 

[Sarevok]

Deleted by admin.

 

[Piratecat]

Sarevok; time to stop being offensive. Look for an email from me.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Gfunk - I'd argue that miracle is never going to be able to grant those permanent ability bonuses, regardless of the god granting them, or the XP cost. Wish has to have SOMETHING, after all.

 

[LordAO]

Miracle doesn't really become unbalanced until someobody gets it as an innate spell. HAhaha! Any spell of 8th level or lower is now mine!!!

I did think it was grossly unfair that some uses of miracle are free, whereas wish always costs 5000 xp. The solution would be to make some of the more minor uses of wish free, or at least cost less exp.