Mirror Image and Combat Reflexes

[tomBitonti]

Targetting is important

That magic missiles can only target creatures, that could be interpreted as a
requirement of a magic missile's ability to hone in their target unerringly: there
has to be a living (or semi-living: construct, undead, elemental) entity there to
lock onto and to damage. The force effect might only come into play when the
force of the spell achieves a focus on the target.

To provide an answer re: MM and MI, couldn't one just rule that "A magic missile,
one or more of a salvo from a single casting, may target a creature under the
effects of mirror image; in this case, the missile strikes randomly at the creature
or at one of the figments; if a figment is targetted, it is dissipated by the missile.
Note: this is an exception to the normal targetting rules for magic missile. Each
missile is directed at a random target, even if all were initially targetted at the
same image."

No particular logic; perhaps the result of an escalation between mages refining
magic missile and others refining mirror image, with the ability to target a mirror
image figment being a special enhancement added to magic missile, taking
advantage of the leaching through of the creatureness of the figments caused
by the random exchange of figments and the caster.

As a side note, the text of mirror image seems to imply that the shifting of the
caster amoung the images happens when the caster ** moves **. In that
case, if you get lucky to hit the caster on the first of iterative attacks, say,
from haste or from a high BAB, wouldn't you get to target the caster on your
remaining attacks? That's not how my groups play it, but an interesting reading.

Also, the text of the spell seems to imply that you can exchange positions with
an image. So, let's say that out of combat you string a line of four images across
a room with a deadly trap. The images don't set off the trap. (Or do they?)
Then you exchange yourself with the image on the far side of the room, neatly
bypassing the trap. Again, that's not how my groups play it, but fun interpretation.

(The two readings are probably mistaking movement as move actions, where the
spell text just means the basic shifting of the caster in place, not actual move
actions.)

Thx,

TFB

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

dcollins
Unfortunately, none of the technical issues involved here ("figments", "target" specification, mirror image setting images in separate map spaces, or saying anything about spell attacks) existed in the AD&D that Gygax wrote. He probably won't even know exactly what you're talking about in that regard, never mind have specific insights to the current problems.

Actually, even the original spell only targeted "creatures"- I checked- and Mirror Images were merely illusions even then. That's why I phrased my question as spells targeting "creatures" versus illusions.

And that also assumes he doesn't play 3Ed- I don't know if he does or doesn't.

But when lawyers are trying to decide what a law really means, we often go back to "legislative intent"- we ask what the drafters said in their commentaries on the laws.

Similarly, asking the Colonel might give us insight as to how illusions are supposed to work vis a vis targeted spells.

As a side note, the text of mirror image seems to imply that the shifting of the
caster amoung the images happens when the caster ** moves **. In that
case, if you get lucky to hit the caster on the first of iterative attacks, say,
from haste or from a high BAB, wouldn't you get to target the caster on your
remaining attacks?

That's the way the spell reads and that's how we play it.

 

[dcollins]

And that also assumes he doesn't play 3Ed- I don't know if he does or doesn't.

He doesn't. If you read the thread that you posted to him in (actually just one page earlier), he reiterates his well-known dislike and avoidance of D&D 3.x.

But when lawyers are trying to decide what a law really means, we often go back to "legislative intent"- we ask what the drafters said in their commentaries on the laws.

I would strongly agree with that if the spell was unchanged since Gygax wrote it. But in this case, it was heavily modified in 3rd Ed., and therefore the appropriate legislator to consider is the "amendment maker", such as Jonathan Tweet, et. al. But at any rate, the Colonel will answer and then you'll see.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I never read the Gygax thread...I just knew it was out there.

I would strongly agree with that if the spell was unchanged since Gygax wrote it. But in this case, it was heavily modified in 3rd Ed., and therefore the appropriate legislator to consider is the "amendment maker", such as Jonathan Tweet

I can't argue with the latter part of that statement...that's 100% unalloyed truth. I guess we can jot an e-mail to the Sage or Wizards Help desk...I've done it before, after all.

However, I'm sitting here looking at the 1Ed and 3.5Ed version of the spells side by side, and the relavent portions are unchanged despite the changes in terminology. Magic Missile was and is a spell that targets "creatures;" Mirror Image was and is a spell that generates illusory creatures. So the core question remains the same- How does a spell that targets "creatures" interact with a spell that generates illusions?

 

[Hypersmurf]

As a side note, the text of mirror image seems to imply that the shifting of the
caster amoung the images happens when the caster ** moves **. In that
case, if you get lucky to hit the caster on the first of iterative attacks, say,
from haste or from a high BAB, wouldn't you get to target the caster on your
remaining attacks?

Right. And anyone who's observing when you hit him can also do the same, until the caster's next action, when he can elect to merge with and split off from images while moving, again confounding onlookers.

If he doesn't move, he can't merge with and split off from images, so onlookers are not again confounded.

Also, the text of the spell seems to imply that you can exchange positions with
an image. So, let's say that out of combat you string a line of four images across
a room with a deadly trap. The images don't set off the trap. (Or do they?)
Then you exchange yourself with the image on the far side of the room, neatly
bypassing the trap.

Well, you have to merge with an image before you can split off from it... and if the image is on the other side of a deadly trap, you'll kill yourself crossing the intervening space in order to merge with it

(Also, I've never held with the suggestion that the caster can place the images where he likes. The images remain in a cluster, not wherever the caster wants to put them...)

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah...its an illusion spell, not a teleporter.

 

[dcollins]

Unfortunately, none of the technical issues involved here ("figments", "target" specification, mirror image setting images in separate map spaces, or saying anything about spell attacks) existed in the AD&D that Gygax wrote. He probably won't even know exactly what you're talking about in that regard, never mind have specific insights to the current problems.

Well, I guess I'll take this back now that he's responded in the other thread. I didn't expect a specific answer, and it's not what I expected from the AD&D spell description. It's actually identical to how I'd rule the 3rd Ed. spell, which in fact makes me really happy about the consistency.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For the record:

Col. Pladough:
Nowhere does it say that a magic missile can't be sent against an illusion as its target.

The ability to cast a magic missile doesn't make the one so doing able to determine if a target is illusory, partly non-material, a reflection in a mirror, or for that matter protected by some magical device that absorbs the energy of the magic missile. The missile unerringly hits the target desired to be struck by the caster as the caster perceives that target. If there are mirror images, the migic missiles will dispell those illusions when they hit them, make the real target apparent if there suffieient missiles being sent forth.

As Dcollins pointed out, Gary's not the current authority...but if its good enough for him, its good enough for me...although I'd rule a little differently on the use of a physical mirror.( ) If a mirror was involved, it would depend on if the MM caster knew it was a mirror (he's using it to target around a corner without being hit) or if he just saw the reflection.

Nothing's ever easy, is it?

 

[dcollins]

Apparently not with D&D.

 

[delericho]

The ruling I would make...

Until I read this thread, I would have ruled that Magic Missile would target a number of images, and destroy any image that was targetted (or harm the mage, if appropriate). I would have ruled that you couldn't Cleave upon destroying an image, and that only the mage could provoke an AoO, so the fighter would get only one AoO, if the mage did anything to cause such a thing while any image was in range.

However, having read this thread, the appropriate sections in the PHB, the FAQ, and having given the issue some thought, here's what I've come up with.

To all intents and purposes, the MI creates a bunch of duplicates of the caster. These all act in the same way (being mirrors) at the same time. They can be targetted individually by spell-casters, fighters, and anyone else, as though they were seperate beings. However, the images themselves are fignments, and so do not count as creatures for the purposes of being affected by spells. Therefore:

1) When choosing who to attack, or target with a spell, a character can either pick a specific image or roll randomly, as he chooses.

2) A fighter who destroys an image can use Cleave to attack another target of his choice.

3) Each image provokes Attacks of Opportunity seperately, so CR could be used to destroy four images. Likewise, if the actual caster were 15 feet from the fighter and cast a spell, the fighter would get an attack of opportunity against any image that was within reach of him.

4) A Magic Missile targetted at an image streaks out and hit the selected figment, with no effect whatsoever.

In the general case, where an illusion is targetted with Magic Missile (or similar spells), the MM will have no direct effect. However, the spellcaster is considered to have interacted with the illusion, and so is due a saving throw, if appropriate.

In the specific case of an Ogre made to look like a Kobold, the key question is whether the illusion is cast on the Ogre, or whether there's an illusion of a kobold that the ogre is merely benefitting from. In the former case, a Magic Missile targetted at "that Kobold" will strike the 'kobold', and do damage to the ogre. In the latter case, the magic missile will strike the 'kobold', do no damage to the ogre. In both cases, the spell will do no damage to the 'kobold' (it's not a creature), but will allow the spellcaster a save, if the spell grants one.

As always, this is just what I'd do, YMMV.