Mirror Image and Combat Reflexes

[Dracomeander]

Viewed from above a 5ft square appears as a surface area of 25 sq ft.
An average person might be 2ft x 1.5ft, or 3 sq ft.
Up to 7 Mirror Images could appear in the same square before any overlap had to occur.

It always seemed, to me, that placing the images in different squares created problems.

Even if you think you can fit that many images in one 5'-space, it still leaves the question of how you justify the 5'-long greatsword not connecting with multiple images as you attack one of them. That length of sword will sweep through the whole space and figments have no physical form to stop or deflect the blade. If they are all overlapping in that one space, the blade will sweep through all of them.

Face it. You have to deal with the added complexity of the images occupying multiple spaces for the spell to be at all effective. It is not a spell for use in confined quarters.

 

[Jack Simth]

Of course, as written, you could just kind have all the mirror images scatter, in groups of two, with you taking one with you. E.g., you get five images, with an enemy to the East; send two North, send two West, and take the last with you heading south. All images are within at least 5 feet of another image or of you. Really fun, that. Which do you follow, without knoweledge of which pair has the real caster?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, as written, you could just kind have all the mirror images scatter, in groups of two, with you taking one with you. E.g., you get five images, with an enemy to the East; send two North, send two West, and take the last with you heading south. All images are within at least 5 feet of another image or of you.

But they're now remaining in three clusters, not remaining in a cluster...

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

What is the Wisdom score of my reflection? What is its Charisma?

Same questions for the figments.

Thus any spell with "Target: N creatures" should not be able to target a figment or any other illusion.

If, however, "creature" in this case is considered to be "anything the spell's caster thinks is alive," then such spells can again target illusions.

A quick "Eureka/Mea Culpa" from me because:

3.5PHB p171
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell (range, area, or the like) cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted. For example, if you cast charm person on a dog, the spell fails because a dog is the wrong sort of target for the spell.

So, yes...a mistargeted spell fizzles.

But what about a spell like Magic Missile that can target multiple targets? Partial fizzle?- that still gets us M.Missile as a nice laser pointer at the real caster behind the Mirror Images. Complete Fizzle?- that seems a bit harsh, don't you think? The best option is to have M.Missile interact with the images as if they were real...but the images, being "figments" are not "creatures."

And that still means that spells that target "creatures" fizzle when targeted at single illusions- making them ideal illusionary foe detectors- unless the definition of creature is affected by the caster's perception of the situation

 

[ZuulMoG]

Magic Missile and You: or, You'll Put Your Eye Out, Kid!!

Sorry to diverge, but it needs to be said...

The spell does not fizzle because it has a valid target.

Agreed.

No, but regardless of which image they target, they are actually targeting the MI user.

No, they are 'selecting an indistinguishable target'. Not at all the same thing.

The figments are indistiguishable and randomly chosen for effect, so there is no need to have them target 'the third image from the left' or some such...completely irrelevent to the outcome of their action.

Untrue. The MM caster picks a particular (or if he's smart and 9th level, five particular) image(s), (one of) which might be the real mage. Now, the player doesn't have to say, 'the odd-numbered images counting from left to right', because not even the DM knows which image is the real caster, hitting the real caster is still a random function, because the images are constantly shifting positions in such a way that the caster's location is unremarkable. All the player needs to say is '5 of the images eat magic missiles', and hope the dice are with him.

(Emphasis added) Selecting from indistiguishable targets does not mean that they actually pick a target.

Um, that's EXACTLY what it means. Select = pick, at least in English it does.

I read it as they attack what they think is the MI user and the DM decides the affect. They are effectively targeting the MI user.

Yes, 'what they think is the the MI user', IE one of the many images, which may or may not actually BE the MI user.


What all of this boils down to is, the FAQ is wrong... about Magic Missile.

Magic missile doesn't 'fizzle' for an invalid target, it fizzles for anything the caster believes is an invalid target. You can't aim Magic Missile at a rope that is hanging your friend (why I don't know, but it's a gay limitation of Magic Missile that it has to target one or more creatures, not objects). If your mage believes he is targeting a creature, then that missile leaps from your mage's finger, streaks unerringly to its target, and transfers its energy to the target. If that target happens to be a displaced creature's image, a mirror image, a rope you've been snookered into thinking is a snake, or pretty much anything else under the sun except a creature, well, that's just too darn bad, no effect, sit down, shut up.

Magic missile, in fact, CAN target objects. Objects affected by the Animate Objects spell are treated as constructs, which are creatures, most of which (golems being notable exceptions) ARE affected my Magic Missile.

So why can't you target Magic Missile at an object that's NOT animated? Isn't a non-moving target EASIER to hit? Well, way back in the olden days of D&D, someone realized that if they didn't ram all sorts of fiat into the spell, it was an IK at 1st level. One MM in each eye, and your foe is blind, or two foes are blind and one gets -2 to hit with missiles if your 9th level. The only reason the rules say you can't target anything but a non-specific location on a creature is because they wanted to keep this spell a 1st level spell.

The only useful solution is to allow the caster of MM to target any discrete object in range, but no particular part of that object. You can target the rope your compatriot is dangling from, but not at the spot where the ranger nicked it already. You can target those pesky archers (or their bows) on the ridge, but not their eyes or bow strings. You can target that giant that's been earnestly striving to render you into gruel with his greatclub, but not the knuckles of his fingers so he'll drop the club. Of course, this means MM is virtually useless against monsters like hydras or beholders (from behind, below, or above, natch), where aiming at a location is neccessary, but that's as it should be.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Ask yourself this: If a Mage cast Magic Missile at a single illusory Ogre, can it even target the illusion? It isn't a creature. If the spell fizzles or cannot be cast, the mage can immediately tell his allies that he has just targeted an illusion.

The only way to get around this "Magic Missile as illusion detector" because it must target creatures, not illusory creatures is to rule that MM can target what the caster percieves to be a creature...including inanimate objects that he cannot see very well- obscured by shadow, or fog, etc.

The following seems obvious to me...

If you read the SRD for magic missile, it clearly states the target: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart. Then, in the description of the spell, is this text: Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

It seems to me that inanimate objects must be able to qualify as creatures. When is that? Maybe it applies to constructs? Under "Construct Type" is this text: A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature. So yes, that seems to apply. Magic missiles can be targeted at constructs.

What about a figment? Would it possibly qualify as an inanimate object? It's not a construct -- in fact, it doesn't really exist. But, as Dannyalcatraz points out, perhaps it's the perception that matters?

When casting magic missile, the mage chooses a target that he believes is a creature (which is another reason why "inanimate object" might be listed in the spell description for MM). When the missile flies to its target and hits, creatures take damage, but inanimate objects do not. Since images from the MI won't take any damage, they won't "wink out" when hit by a MM. But they would otherwise display damage (just like the fireball example for area effect spells in the MI description).

I would rule that MM can be cast at the user of the MI spell. Each missile gets a random roll to determine if it hit an image or the real spellcaster. If it hits the real spellcaster, damage is done (assuming SR is penetrated). If it hits an image, it appears to have an effect but the image does not wink out.

This makes the spell a little more effective than shield, since it protects from most magic missiles, and it confounds melee and ranged attackers as well. (At least, for as long as the images last, which likely won't be long.) It's a 2nd level spell with an effective duration much shorter than shield, so this seems reasonably well balanced.

 

[dcollins]

Since images from the MI won't take any damage, they won't "wink out" when hit by a MM. But they would otherwise display damage (just like the fireball example for area effect spells in the MI description).

You're kind of missing the point on this one. Mirror images always look exactly like the caster (they are "duplicates of you"). The only reason area effects change the appearance, is that they mirror the damage done to the caster. They don't independently act like they've taken individual fake damage.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would allow AoO against each of the mages which the fighter sees. He sees four identical mages run past him. If they were four goblins he could strike at each of them, if they were four rats occupying the same square and moving at the same time he could strike at each of them. I can't see any reason for not allowing him a strike at each of the potential targets.

 

[apesamongus]

I would allow AoO against each of the mages which the fighter sees. He sees four identical mages run past him. If they were four goblins he could strike at each of them, if they were four rats occupying the same square and moving at the same time he could strike at each of them. I can't see any reason for not allowing him a strike at each of the potential targets.

But you would never see 4 goblins or 4 rats run through at exactly the same time. Even with delayed actions there is no such thing as simultaneous actions.

 

[Cheiromancer]

azhrei_fje notes that inanimate objects cannot be damaged by magic missile. Wouldn't this includes the figments created by a Mirror Image spell? They thus absorb the missiles directed at them without being harmed.