Misconceptions about 3.5...Answers

[Cadfan]

I don't consider Unearthed Arcana to really be 3.5, and I think my opinion is pretty widely shared. I mean, it IS 3.5, to an extent, but its a 3.5 augmented with a bunch of alternate rules and subsystems. I think the writers of Unearthed Arcana, and the people who purchased it, were pretty much on the same page about this issue.

Even WOTC, on their forums, filed Unearthed Arcana in a section labeled "Unearthed Arcana and House Rules."

That being said, I agree that anyone who feels that the various problems listed by the OP exist in 3e, but who doesn't want to switch to 4e, might want to take a look at the PHBII and Unearthed Arcana. And possibly at Tome of Battle as well. And since they're already alternate system-ing up their game, there are some 3rd party products they might like as well.

 

[Cadfan]

I also suspect that the published CRs are a lot more estimated and based on designer judgement call rather than "pure math" than a lot of people give it credit for. I could be wrong, but I've never seen CR as anything more than a very rough gauge, and as such, it works just fine, even with fairly substantial optional rule additions.

Plus; as someone who's played plenty of games who have nothing like CR at all in them (including older editions of D&D) I don't see that as anything like a crippling problem anyway. At best, CR's are a very rough shortcut that needs to be continuously calibrated by the DM's knowledge of his PC's actual capability anyway, not a substitute for doing that.

In agreement: I think its impossible to come up with a system that does much better than CR, due to the widely divergent character abilities in D&D. There's just too much variation in the options available to a party of PCs, so even if you come up with a good average, there will still be plenty of individual groups who find a particular monster or encounter too hard or too easy.

In disagreement: That being said, less swingy combat helps mitigate this problem. I don't think that 4e monster levels are necessarily more accurate than CR, but since hit points are higher and combat is less volatile a surprisingly tough fight doesn't lead to TPKs quite as easily, and a surprisingly easy fight doesn't end in quite as few rounds as it might in 3e.

In disagreement: The 3e system of adding multiple lower level monsters up to create challenge ratings was broken. Six CR 7 monsters just do not create the same challenge as one CR 12 monster. The 4e system of having stronger or weaker monsters within a single level that can be used in varying amounts is much more sound. This isn't so much a critique of CR as it is of Encounter Level, but they're related.

 

[Obryn]

This thread is completely bizarre.

I think this is what happens when you start a thread in response to posts in a different thread, but don't directly explain the connection. You find out that everyone else replying thinks they're in a different thread than you think they're in.

I understood as of a few pages ago what Imaro was actually arguing, but I can see why there was some initial (and maybe continuing) confusion.

Still, everyone's making statements I don't really see as controversial. Maybe I'm wrong?

(1) If you have a rule you don't like, you can change it so you do like it.

(1a) If you don't like something about a system, you can add a rule to change the system.

(2) If you do this, you've changed the game a bit, it might make more work for you down the road, and you can't expect it to be supported in later published releases.

(3) There's a difference between adding a component like a spell, feat, or class; and changing a rule, like Reserve Points or replacing a d20 with 2d10. (Edit: Or at the very least can see that a person could reasonably think so.)


I mean, really, I don't know what everyone's talking about anymore.

-O

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Also, about the CR and "carefully balanced math" of 3e; I suspect more and more that that is merely a myth, frankly. Those CR's aren't that good in practice.

Unfortunately, I am afraid you are correct. But I think that doesn't improve the system much, because I actually would love to have such a system working!

I mean, really, I don't know what everyone's talking about anymore.

That's irrelevant. What matters is that I am wrong... Err., no, that I am right! Yes, exactly - I am right. Hahaha.

 

[Greylock]

I don't consider Unearthed Arcana to really be 3.5, and I think my opinion is pretty widely shared....

I've played in a large number of 3.5 games with DMs who didn't allow any splat books or third party material. Yet every single one of them allowed selected parts of Unearthed Arcana. Some classes here, action points there, hexes over yonder... Something. And it's in the SRD, which means even the most hardcore DM I've played with allows it.

 

[billd91]

For the 1st problem, the issue of regretting a bad character choice can be mitigated/nullified by simply taking some time and effort to first properly conceptualize and design your PC before actually playing him, so you don't end up crying over spilt milk. Map out your progression all the way from 1st lv to whatever level you expect the campaign to end at. Consult experts from the CO boards if you must. Prevention is better than cure, IMO.

I am not in favor of overplanning a character's career. Too many times the player's plans don't match well wtih the campaign's development or mesh well with the other PCs.
What I am in favor of is people not getting bent out of shape because they spent a feat sub-optimally. I know there are only a limited number of them over the course of the PC's career, but revising your plans because you made a choice that isn't perfectly optimal in the long run isn't exactly the end of the world.

 

[Cadfan]

I've played in a large number of 3.5 games with DMs who didn't allow any splat books or third party material. Yet every single one of them allowed selected parts of Unearthed Arcana. Some classes here, action points there, hexes over yonder... Something. And it's in the SRD, which means even the most hardcore DM I've played with allows it.

I don't think that changes anything. I'm not saying that use of Unearthed Arcana was rare, I'm saying that I think that those who did use Unearthed Arcana generally acknowledged that they were using alternative rule systems to modify their game away from "regular" 3rd edition. Some more than others, naturally- I doubt that those who simply tossed in an alternative class thought much of it.

 

[Obryn]

I've played in a large number of 3.5 games with DMs who didn't allow any splat books or third party material. Yet every single one of them allowed selected parts of Unearthed Arcana. Some classes here, action points there, hexes over yonder... Something. And it's in the SRD, which means even the most hardcore DM I've played with allows it.

I think it's the bolded portion that's under discussion.

If it's a "selected part", it's imporant which parts are selected (if any) and why. Unearthed Arcana may be OGL, but I think it would be tough to argue that its rules variants are default assumptions in the same way the PHB's combat rules are. (edit: And if two DMs are talking about their campaigns, and both tell you they're using "parts" of Unearthed Arcana, it doesn't really give you any substantive information, since there are so very many options involved.)

I don't honestly think anyone's really making this argument apart from a vague and unhelpful "everything's optional" (which invalidates any productive discussion, IMHO, by removing the system from a discussion which is ostensibly about a system).

-O

 

[Greg K]

I've played in a large number of 3.5 games with DMs who didn't allow any splat books or third party material. Yet every single one of them allowed selected parts of Unearthed Arcana. Some classes here, action points there, hexes over yonder.

I allow selected parts of UA and almost nothing from other WOTC supplements (excluding MM2, Fiend Folio, and a few dedicated monster books). Then again, I do allow some 3pp products and a few are "core" for my games

 

[DandD]

I have no idea who Angel Summoner and BMX Boy are

Here's the video. Awesome thing, and somehow reminds many D&D-players about certain situations.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw]YouTube - Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit[/ame]