Mithril studded leather

[wuyanei]

IMG last saturday, a player wanted to make mithril studded leather. The mithril is for the rivets. The player argued that most of the weight (and thus encumberance, ACP and ASF) comes from the close-set rivets -- 'close-set rivets on a soft-leather backing' -- without which the armor should be no more restricting than padded armor.

In the end, I allowed it, my reason being totally meta-game -- +2 AC for +1000 gp when compaired to padded will not break anything, IMO. Plus, I admire a player who thinks of something so obvious, that I missed it throughout more than 7 years of gaming.

What I would like to ask the community here, especially people with actual experience with wearing studded leather armor (if there are any such people in the community) is: "Just how restrictive is the leather backing for studded leather? How would you have ruled in this particular case?

Thanks in advance!
Yanei Wu

 

[KarinsDad]

I would have not allowed it.

DMG page 284

"Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral."

Padded Armor 10 pounds
Leather Armor 15 pounds
Studded Leather 20 pounds

Although Leather Armor is rigid leather and Studded Leather Armor is not, I still think that Studded Leather Armor is "partially made of metal".

 

[Pielorinho]

In the end, I allowed it, my reason being totally meta-game -- +2 AC for +1000 gp when compaired to padded will not break anything, IMO. Plus, I admire a player who thinks of something so obvious, that I missed it throughout more than 7 years of gaming.

I think your reasoning is perfect, and perfectly within the rules. Karinsdad, while those weights are interesting, keep in mind that leather armor's leather component is in no way a soft leather backing: it's boiled leather, and it's thick enough that it provides protection only marginally less than the protection provided by a sheet of metal studs. Padded armor is fairly thick, consisting of two sheets of cloth with lots of stuffing between them, sitting alone in the armor shop, waiting for many years for someone, anyone, to come along and buy it.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Although Leather Armor is rigid leather and Studded Leather Armor is not, I still think that Studded Leather Armor is "partially made of metal".

Doh! I missed that first line. Sorry about that.

Still, the question isn't whether it's "partially made of metal"; the question is whether it's "primarily of metal." I think one can make a good case that it is, every bit as much as a spear is primarily of metal despite the wooden haft: the business part of the spear is metal, so a mithral spear is a relevant item. Similarly, the business part of studded leather is metal, so mithral armor is a relevant item.

Daniel

 

[wuyanei]

Karinsdad: Had exactly the same initial reaction. "Eh? It's, erm, leather. It even says so in the name." The player argued, convincingly IMO, that if the rivets are fastened close enough to turn blades, they should be the numerous enough that take up the vast majority of the armor's weight.

I think it is agreed (at least, it is agreed IMG) that the 'encumberance rating' is not actually the same as the weight of the object. It is just a rough measurement of how 'encumbering' a given object is. Padded armor might not actually wieght 10 lbs. -- it is just stiff and bulky enough that it slows you down 10 encumberance ratings (termed as a lb.), so you can't take 20-10 and say studded leather armor has 10 lbs worth of metal on it (I mentioned that argument too). I was partially convinced that maybe the soft leather backing would not encumber a character any more than layers upon layers of padded armor.... for that is just what 'mithril studded leather' amounts to, MaxDex-, ACP-, and ASF-wise.

Truth be told, I don't have enough knowledge in real studded leather to judge. That is why I came here to ask everyone on the forum.

Pielorinho: I am confident that this ruling will not ruin anything balance-wise. At the very least, there is still a 5% ASF chance, so most arcane spellcasters will still give it a pass. Still, I would like to know if it is a ruling backed by reality (I know, I know).

Anyways, the assassins guild will be happy with this 'invention'... now, I just have to find a way to let the guild 'thank' the PCs properly...

Thanks for replying!
Yanei Wu

 

[KarinsDad]

Doh! I missed that first line. Sorry about that.

Still, the question isn't whether it's "partially made of metal"; the question is whether it's "primarily of metal." I think one can make a good case that it is, every bit as much as a spear is primarily of metal despite the wooden haft: the business part of the spear is metal, so a mithral spear is a relevant item. Similarly, the business part of studded leather is metal, so mithral armor is a relevant item.

The DMG states that "A longsword can be a mithral weapon, a scythe cannot."

So, I would rule against the spear as well.

If you look at the pictures of the scythe, shortspear, and longspear on page 115 of the PHB, the scythe appears to have a significantly higher percentage of metal (probably close to half of the weight of the weapon) than the spears and it is disallowed.

Studded Leather: "This armor is made from tough but flexible leather reinforced with close-set metal rivets."

All of the metal armors indicate that they are made out of metal. This one is made out of leather. Reinforced does not imply primarily to me.

 

[Pielorinho]

All of the metal armors indicate that they are made out of metal. This one is made out of leather. Reinforced does not imply primarily to me.

Well, to each his own. My policy is, when in doubt, say yes: for myself, it makes the game more fun. I can see an argument either way, but I'd rather say yes to both the PC and the NPC.

Daniel

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I also would have not allowed it. Much for the same reason as Karinsdad has stated.

No - wait. Actually, I would have allowed its construction, but it wouldn't have given full benefits. That's really where I would stand. Because the truth is, you could actually do what the player wanted - make the rivets out of Mithril. That isn't what I have roblems with. Here's a chart comparison:

Armor          AC   DEX  SF%  Check Penalty
Leather        2    6    10%  0
St. Leather    3    5    15%  -1
Mithril St. Le 3    7    5%   0

At least I think those numbers are right. If anything, in my hurry I may have made a mistake in the Mithril and underpowered it.

But as is ... the 1,000 gold increase spoken of earlier in actuality is granting not only an improved AC over the leather but also an improved DEX range, an improved SF% and the same check penalty. You can't get the same effects out of a +1 enhancement bonus even though the cost is the same!

In the end, this item is not game-breaking. For me it falls intot he category of "What's good for the goose is good for the gander" and the party may see more of these types of armor on their enemies. [Assuming it doesn't give the party too much wealth ...]

Now, if I were going to design specs for a partial-metal mithril suit of studded leather armor ... I would say that making the stats of the studded leather armor match those of the leather armor (exceptions: AC does not decrease and weight would be 15, not 10) would seem fair. That would grant the Mithril bonus at 1/2 their usual effectiveness ... but that makes sense since the item is at best 1/2 metal.

In the end, though, as a DM I still would not allow it just because I like to follow as many rules with as few exceptions as possible. The next thing will be mithril scythes ... you wait!

 

[Pielorinho]

I should add that the spear thing is my mistake: I was thinking that mithral granted some bonus beyond just the decreased weight for weaponry (e.g., penetrated some critter's DR).

Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, to each his own. My policy is, when in doubt, say yes: for myself, it makes the game more fun. I can see an argument either way, but I'd rather say yes to both the PC and the NPC.

I'm not sure that giving in to players trying to stretch the rules (or find loopholes) makes the game more fun for them though. I notice that players rarely try to "get away with" roleplaying elements, mostly just rules elements. I wonder why that is... Hmmm.

Karinsdad: Had exactly the same initial reaction. "Eh? It's, erm, leather. It even says so in the name." The player argued, convincingly IMO, that if the rivets are fastened close enough to turn blades, they should be the numerous enough that take up the vast majority of the armor's weight.

It's a fine rationale. It's also a reasonable ruling. It just does not appear to match what is in the DMG.

I think it is agreed (at least, it is agreed IMG) that the 'encumberance rating' is not actually the same as the weight of the object. It is just a rough measurement of how 'encumbering' a given object is. Padded armor might not actually wieght 10 lbs. -- it is just stiff and bulky enough that it slows you down 10 encumberance ratings (termed as a lb.), so you can't take 20-10 and say studded leather armor has 10 lbs worth of metal on it (I mentioned that argument too). I was partially convinced that maybe the soft leather backing would not encumber a character any more than layers upon layers of padded armor.... for that is just what 'mithril studded leather' amounts to, MaxDex-, ACP-, and ASF-wise.

Well, I don't see where 20 pounds of weight is not weight. Read the Weight section on page 122 of the PHB.