MM Classed Monsters Disconnect

[dcollins]

Here is, I think, an oversight in the Monster Manual with regard to monsters with class levels. Let's say you look closely at all the "Organization" entries that specify typical leaders (sergeants, lieutenants, chiefs, etc.) and their levels.

First, we know that all monsters with base 1 HD (or less) have that Hit Die entirely replaced by any class levels (MM 14, DMG 22-24), so let's leave them aside for this discussion.

Now, consider the monsters with exactly 2 HD with specified leader levels in "Organization". There are 7: the azer, gnoll, grimlock, kuo-toa, lizardfolk, locathah, and sahuagin. In all of these cases, the first specified leader type starts at "3rd-level" and works up from there. This definitely suggests that the number is referring to "total character level", the class levels + Hit Dice (as defined in the core rules on MM 14 & DMG 24) -- i.e., the base 2 HD plus 1 level of some class. (This also syncs up with the same total HD specified for leaders of these races in AD&D materials.)

However, consider the monsters with 3 HD or more, again with specified leader levels in "Organization". There are only 3: the bugbear, centaur, and giant. Now, in each of these cases the first specified leader starts with a level less than the monster's Hit Dice (less than the 2HD monster leaders, too) -- "1st or 2nd-level" and only working up from there. Therefore, this clearly can't represent total character levels, but only added class levels.

So a question: are "Organization" leader levels in the MM meant to specify total character levels (per DMG/MM definition), or class levels only? It seems to me like it's set up as the former for 2HD monsters, and the latter for 3+HD monsters.

 

[Grazzt]

I always assumed it meant class levels only (thus excluding HD).

For example, a bugbear leader is listed as "...and 1 leader of 2nd-5th level", therefore he would have 3 HD (bugbear) plus 5 class levels.

I assume the entry for leaders, sergeants, etc. is only for class levels. But- I could be wrong.

 

[Crothian]

I'll second the class level thing.

 

[dcollins]

So apparently the previous posters conclude that:
(a) all 2HD monster leaders start at out 5 Hit Dice total (none 3-4),
(b) all 2HD monster leaders start at a higher class level than any 3+HD leaders, and
(c) the 3rd Ed. designers intentionally took all AD&D 2HD monster leaders, and increased them exactly +2HD for the new rules.

 

[Grazzt]

So apparently the previous posters conclude that:
(a) all 2HD monster leaders start at out 5 Hit Dice total (none 3-4),
(b) all 2HD monster leaders start at a higher class level than any 3+HD leaders, and
(c) the 3rd Ed. designers intentionally took all AD&D 2HD monster leaders, and increased them exactly +2HD for the new rules.

You could have a leader of any level you want (just because the MM says level 3rd-6th or whatever doesnt mean you have to follow that).

I am going by the fact that the levels listed for leader types encompass class levels only, not monster HD.

For example, you could have a 2nd-level bugbear leader. He would have 3 HD (bugbear) and 2 class levels (say of fighter or whatever). Thus a 2nd-level leader (counting class levels only).

Another example, the range listed for gnoll leaders is 6th-8th level, thus a gnoll leader (by the book) could have 6-8 total class levels (not including the 2HD for gnoll).

Could always ask Skip Williams and see what he has to say: thesage@wizards.com

 

[dcollins]

I am going by the fact that the levels listed for leader types encompass class levels only, not monster HD.

That is not correct. Nowhere in the book is it defined whether these levels are "character" or "class" -- hence my posting this thread. As I quoted above, the Organization entries for all the 2HD monsters say simply "Nth-level" with no class specifier.

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

So a question: are "Organization" leader levels in the MM meant to specify total character levels (per DMG/MM definition), or class levels only? It seems to me like it's set up as the former for 2HD monsters, and the latter for 3+HD monsters.

What do you think dude? Would 3E designers just kinda randomly define leader levels differently for different creatures? I really don't think so. The answer to your question is: class levels to leaders are just that... class levels. 2HD, 3HD, whatever. You take the base creature and add the class level(s) as described in the Characters chapter of the DMG.

As for why a 3HD creature would have a leader of 1st level... I dunno. It makes sense to me though.

 

[Grazzt]

That is not correct. Nowhere in the book is it defined whether these levels are "character" or "class" -- hence my posting this thread. As I quoted above, the Organization entries for all the 2HD monsters say simply "Nth-level" with no class specifier.

Ok- maybe I shouldn't have said fact. What I meant was going by what is there, I am assuming the levels listed for leaders are class levels only and do not include "monster levels" (or HD).

 

[Grazzt]

As for why a 3HD creature would have a leader of 1st level... I dunno. It makes sense to me though.

Well, technically, if you have a 3 HD monster (say bugbear) and then a leader who is a 1st-level fighter, the bugbear leader is actually a 4th-level character (compared to the 3 levels the normal bugbear has).

The bugbear leader (as a 1st-level fighter) gets 1d10+ Con modifier additional hp, +1 BAB, +2 bonus to Fort saves, bonus feat (from fighter list), etc. So, even a 1st-level bugbear leader (3HD bugbear plus 1 level fighter) is stronger (stat wise) than a common bugbear.

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

So, even a 1st-level bugbear leader (3HD bugbear plus 1 level fighter) is stronger (stat wise) than a common bugbear.

Right. That's why I don't understand where this "disconnect" is.