MM Classed Monsters Disconnect

[Archer]

The books claim every humanoid monster has 1 level of warrior. When they add levels they are talking about levels of warrior unless otherwise specified.

 

[Grazzt]

The books claim every humanoid monster has 1 level of warrior. When they add levels they are talking about levels of warrior unless otherwise specified.

Um- Nope. Only humanoids with 1 HD are considered to be 1st-level warriors. Look in the description, it states which ones are 1st-level warriors. Usually the last sentence right before the "Combat" section. Check the elf, gnome, halfling, goblin, hobgoblin, just to name a few.

Also- if you look at the "XXXX Characters" section that follows each humanoid monster it details which classes are usually leaders. For example, sticking with the bugbear it says in the "Bugbear Characters" section...

"A bugbear's favored class is rogue. Most bugbear leaders are fighters or fighter/rogues"

So- going by that, a typical bugbear leader would be a fighter or fighter/rogue not a warrior.

 

[Grazzt]

Right. That's why I don't understand where this "disconnect" is.

Me neither. I mean, the common bugbear (dont know what the hell my fascination is with these guys today ) is 3HD. Bugbear sergeants are usually 2nd level. This has to be only class levels. Otherwise the bugbear sergeants would be WEAKER (HD wise) than the common bugbear and that makes no sense whatsoever.

So-

Common bugbear: 3 HD

Bugbear sergeant: 3 HD plus 2 class levels.

Bugbear leader: 3 HD plus 2-5 class levels.

Same thing for the other humanoids, outsiders (Azer), etc that advance by PC class and have sergeants, lieutenants, leaders, etc. listed. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

 

[dcollins]

Right. That's why I don't understand where this "disconnect" is.

One last time, in case it wasn't clear in the original post:

Yes, I agree bugbear leaders must have specified class levels added to the base HD -- that's not the problem, nor for the other 2 monsters with 3+HD.

The problem then is that all 2HD monsters have leaders starting at "3rd level". Hence your implication is that all 2HD monsters have leaders of at least 5 total character levels. Apparently, by your reckoning, there exist no azer, gnoll, grimlock, kuo-toa, lizardfolk, locathah, or sahuagin of either 3 or 4 character levels (total HD) -- they jump from 2HD straight to 5HD. That's the disconnect (under the "they're all class levels" assumption).

 

[Gromm]

I'll second the class level thing.

Add my vote to this category.

 

[Ventifus]

It is my understanding that (at least in the core books) the term "levels" are never used to refer to Hit Dice. The reverse, using Hit Dice to refer to levels, is used however. So, a 3rd-level Azer would have 3 actual levels in classes, either PC classes, NPC classes or Prestiege Classes. So, such an Azer would be a 5 hit die monster, but still only 3rd level.

Perhaps the discontinuity might be explained by 1st and 2nd level monsters of certain types not being powerful enough to claim a leadership position?

 

[Grazzt]

Apparently, by your reckoning, there exist no azer, gnoll, grimlock, kuo-toa, lizardfolk, locathah, or sahuagin of either 3 or 4 character levels (total HD) -- they jump from 2HD straight to 5HD. That's the disconnect (under the "they're all class levels" assumption).

They exist. They just aren't leaders. So, on to the 2 HD monsters.

Yes- the leaders jump from 2 character levels (HD only) to 5 character levels (2 HD plus 3 class levels). This doesnt mean that you cant have a 2 HD monster with class levels 1 or 2. It just means they are not leaders.

For example, an Azer leader is listed as 3rd-6th level. So that would be 2 HD (azer) plus 3-6 class levels (for a total of 5 to 8 character levels).

So- any azer with 1-2 character levels is not a leader. He is simply an azer with class levels (by the standard rules).