MM2 and Trample

[Markn]

Does trample no longer provoke? The monsters in the MM2 that have trample no longer explicitly say that the trample provokes. Does this mean that trample no longer provokes?

For what its worth, I always thought that trample was sub par in the 1st MM because the damage wasn't much greater than their standard melee attacks and they didn't get hit during the attack (and/or affected by effects that would render the attack null and void).

Just wondering.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, in 4e, there is no generic rule for trample.

Thus, some monster's trample may provoke OA while others may not.

That is the way how monster powers work in 4e. When using a monster, just read the text in that monster's stats block and follow the description.

For example, so many monsters have powers called "Combat Advantage". But actual benefits gained vary widely.

 

[Mort_Q]

I think that they're just simplifying the language. It's only the MM2 tramples (at least with a quick look at the 16 monsters that have the word trample in the D&D Compendium) that don't include the phrase.

In order for an enemy to trample a PC, they must enter the PC's square. Entering a PC's square is "leaving an adjacent square" and thus provokes by definition.

The addition in the other releases (MM1, Dungeon, ECS, etc.) of the phrase "his movement provokes opportunity attacks" is redundant to the existing rules.

 

[Markn]

Mort_Q, you are probably right. But still, it would be nice if they explicitly pointed this out somewhere. I checked for Trample in the Glossary of the Compendium to see if there was updated wording but it doesn't even list it there.

FWIW, I've always felt that trample was a sub par choice for most creatures since it was going to get wacked (potentially) by every PC it was trying to trample. Fact is, the PCs would likely do more damage to the trampler than the creature would do trampling them.

I may just end up house ruling trample that it doesn't provoke.

Anybody else feel that trample is underwhelming?

 

[Mort_Q]

I'm torn with them being too explicit in the NPC powers; there is no point in rewriting the rules over and over, but sometimes people miss things.

That said, trample is cinematic even if it isn't the best attack per se, but it does allow the NPC to bypass the defensive lines and attack the squishies. Making it not provoke would be unfair to the defenders and squishes alike.

 

[Armadillo]

The point of the trample is more to throw a party off balance than do damage.

You might want to think of some house rules to clarify how trample works. Pathfinder gives an opponent a choice of either making an opportunity attack against a trample at -4 or make a Reflex save to avoid the damage. The rules as written don't say, but I rule that if you take damage you get knocked prone.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

FWIW, I've always felt that trample was a sub par choice for most creatures since it was going to get wacked (potentially) by every PC it was trying to trample. Fact is, the PCs would likely do more damage to the trampler than the creature would do trampling them.

Well, yeah. But most rampling creatures are pretty mindless. I think it's all about making the PCs seem like heroes. There is a trope out there about heroes hitting big beasts as they charge past.

 

[Markn]

This thread could rapidly turn into a house rule thread, which I don't intend for it to be.

Everyone has fair points. I'll just add, that I love 4e, but find the the kid gloves are on waaayy too much. I DM a party of 6 and they are pretty sound strategically. Based on how they play, using creatures that have trample, while cinematically may be interesting, leads to a quick death. There just isn't much room for me to make sub par decisions with monsters and have fights at any sort of threat level beyond non existent. Hence, when I noticed EVERY creature in MM2 with different wording for trample it made me wonder if they changed how trample works.

Mort_Q,

If WotC had a glossary entry for Trample somewhere on how it specifically works, then there would be no need to rewrite rules over and over. Since powers are designed to be the exception to the rule, one can never be too sure if the new trample wording in MM2 is by design, in that those creatures don't provoke with trample, or if they are choosing to save space by not writing something that is obvious. I suspect the latter is the case.

For our game, updating trample for all creatures to match the MM2 description for trample (which lacks the line about provoking) wouldn't break much and I'd be much more inclined to use those creatures, and that power specifically.

Besides, I'm not the type of DM who would abuse it anyways. I'm not about to dance back and forth over a player multiple times with the same application of the power!