Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[Mouseferatu]

Just wanted to correct you on 1 thing... a Cone of Cold cast by a 15th or 20th level caster is exactly identical. The range is a set 60' cone and doesn't increase with level. Damage id 1d6 per level, but to a max of 15d6. Saves are not affected by caster level. So they will be exactly the same, as will Fireballs (max 10d6), Lightning Bolts (max 10d6), Magic Missile (max 5 missiles at 9th lvl), and other attack spells of 5th lvl and below. Even Freezing Sphere, a 6th level spell, is limited to 15 dice, though Chain Lightning, another 6th lvl spell, is limited to 20th lvl.

So only a small handful of attack spells will actually do a few dice more of damage by a single class 20th lvl wizard vs a MT/TN...

Sigh... See above, re: me being an idiot.

I should have chosen horrid wilting, or delayed blast fireball. The point stands, though, when it comes to any spell of 7th-level or higher.

 

[Samurai]

Sigh... See above, re: me being an idiot.

I should have chosen horrid wilting, or delayed blast fireball. The point stands, though, when it comes to any spell of 7th-level or higher.

True... but then the question becomes "Would you trade 2 9th lvl spells and a few dice of damage for spells of 6th-7th lvl and up, for access to the entire Divine spells list, an additional 120 spell levels per day (a 66% increase over a vanilla wizard), powerful rebuke undead ability, Necromantic Potence +4, etc?" I certainly know my answer, but I recognize that others may disagree.

Incidently, TN get Horrid Wilting as a class ability, and with Necromantic Potence, would do 19d6 vs a wizard's 20d6... almost no difference.

 

[Felon]

To me, this feels like a "let's give something to rogues for undead fights" mechanic, which the game was sorely lacking. Ever played a rogue in an undead-heavy campaign? Although useful for getting the party into the vampire lord's lair, completely useless in a fight.

"Useless"? Oh, you mean that he's denied the gross damage output that exceeds the party's fighter, barbarian, and pretty much everyone else? He just gets the damage of his actual weapon? Man, life's hard.

We have a guy who complains whenever his rogue is denied sneak attack damage, and the party is swiftly resolving to simply thump him on the head whenever he starts up.

Here's a quaint thought: maybe a rogue should actually be content to be the guy who gets the party into vampire lord's lair, due to receiving more skill points than God.

 

[Nightfall]

Hey now! There are PLENTY of gods (even the one with the big G in his name), that have more skill ranks than a rogue! Especially a 1st level one!

 

[Felon]

True... but then the question becomes "Would you trade 2 9th lvl spells and a few dice of damage for spells of 6th-7th lvl and up, for access to the entire Divine spells list, an additional 120 spell levels per day (a 66% increase over a vanilla wizard), powerful rebuke undead ability, Necromantic Potence +4, etc?"

The answer seems pretty clear-cut. It's OTT.

I certainly know my answer, but I recognize that others may disagree.

Such is the nature of this board. The rule of thumb is "defend designers, blame players and DM's". You won't be able to get away with saying a class or feat is perhaps poorly-designed without folks crawling out of the woodwork to defend it. Now, if you were grousing about players or DM's who quote movie lines too much, you'd get 800 pages of rousing support like it was a major crisis. Welcome to ENWorld.

Incidently, TN get Horrid Wilting as a class ability, and with Necromantic Potence, would do 19d6 vs a wizard's 20d6... almost no difference.

OK, so in addition to dual progression, the TN also still has the Necromantic Potence ability that allows him to combine all his divine and arcane levels when casting necromantic spells? And he gets bonus necromantic spell-like abilities up all the way up to 9th-level? OK, this is getting absurd really quickly. Anywhere where the TN starts to look like it's coming up short, we can quickly find where the design compensates to caulk up the hole to make sure the TN doesn't come up too short, if at all.

"He can't do as much damage with cone of cold...oh wait, yes he can...well, he can't do as much damage with horrid wilting...he comes up a dice short...see, it's fine? And hey, even if you co-opt every ability in the world, remember you only get to use one per round! Foolproof game design saves the day again!"

Yeah, right. Good arguing there, guys.

Incidentally, all this busines about max spellcasting levels for MT's and TN's being 15/15 or 17/17 or whatever seems to overlook the fact that 3.5e now provides core rules for epic progressions that allow a class to have levels that go beyond those listed in the class progression table. The DMG states the epic MT as being able to keep stacking levels on and on forever.

Now, if someone who has Libris Mortis can verify whether or not the TN's class co-opting class feature meets the criterion that it "accumulates as part of a repeated pattern", then it should increase pass 14th level as well, thereby allowing the TN access to hit 20/20.

 

[Samurai]

One note: They changed the definition of Necromantic Potence. Back in Tome and Blood, where the TN first appeared, it allowed him to add all of his levels together when casting Necro spells. Now, it provides a flat bonus to caster level for all Necro spells: +1 CL at 3rd, +2 at 6th, +3 at 9th, and +4 at 12th.

There isn't really a set pattern to the progression for caster levels as far as epic levels. At 1st & 6th level, they get only Arcane advancement. At 2nd & 7th, only Divine advancement. By that progression, 11th and 12th lvl should be single progressions as well, but they aren't. (If they were, it may help to balance the class...)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Anyone able to give some details on Doresain? Does he still have a tenuous link to Nerull, the Orb of Shadows, and the Negative Material Plane?

Anything about the kingdom of ghouls he established, the White Kingdom, being a competative power to Erelhei-Cinlu, the Vault of the Drow?

Anyone?

 

[Samurai]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Anondson
Anyone able to give some details on Doresain? Does he still have a tenuous link to Nerull, the Orb of Shadows, and the Negative Material Plane?

Anything about the kingdom of ghouls he established, the White Kingdom, being a competative power to Erelhei-Cinlu, the Vault of the Drow?

Anyone?

The White Kingdom is mentioned very briefly as a layer of the Abyss where Doresain lives. None of the other things are mentioned.

 

[Felon]

One note: They changed the definition of Necromantic Potence. Back in Tome and Blood, where the TN first appeared, it allowed him to add all of his levels together when casting Necro spells. Now, it provides a flat bonus to caster level for all Necro spells: +1 CL at 3rd, +2 at 6th, +3 at 9th, and +4 at 12th.

Good lord...do we have a "shaking-head-in-disgust" smiley available here?

Y'know, if the prereqs were at least somewhat stringent--made it involve a little sacrifice--that could've redeemed the class, but they even screwed the pooch there. It's a walk-in.

There isn't really a set pattern to the progression for caster levels as far as epic levels. At 1st & 6th level, they get only Arcane advancement. At 2nd & 7th, only Divine advancement. By that progression, 11th and 12th lvl should be single progressions as well, but they aren't. (If they were, it may help to balance the class...)

Yep, would've made for a more balanced PrC in the short term, and provided that accumulation of class features in a "repeated pattern" to allow for long-term progression to epic levels. Hope the rest of the PrC's aren't like this, or it'll wind up in my no-fly list along with other smackdown books like Book of Exalted Deeds and Player's Guide to Fearun, and continued an ugly trend of power-creep.

EDIT--btw, is safe to assume the TN has the same hit die, BAB, save bonuses, and skill points as a MT or wizard (i.e. horrible in all areas)?

 

[Felon]

ooo, just remembered the quesiton I popped in here to ask in the first place: is there any mention of the avolakia, the race of necromantic aberrations that use the undead as both thralls and livestock?