Mmmm...Libris Mortis.

[Doug McCrae]

I was thinking of going for TN with my currently 4th level Wizard-Necromancer but I realised it'd be a huge mistake for several reasons:

1) I only have wisdom 11 so I'd have to boost it to 12 at 8th level just to qualify for the class and I'd never get the high level cleric spells at all. (I didn't know about TN when I created the character, went for a straight wizard-necromancer build with str 7, dex 14, con 16, int 18, wis 11, cha 12.)
2) I'm just about to get into some real power from 5th to 7th level (Fireball, Charm Monster, Empowered Scorching Ray). It would mean putting that on hold for three levels.
3) I don't see this campaign ever going beyond 10th level anyway.
4) The party already has a cleric. As it's only a 3-player group I should stick to what I'm good at.

TN overpowered? Not for me.

 

[Samurai]

Good lord...do we have a "shaking-head-in-disgust" smiley available here?

Y'know, if the prereqs were at least somewhat stringent--made it involve a little sacrifice--that could've redeemed the class, but they even screwed the pooch there. It's a walk-in.



Yep, would've made for a more balanced PrC in the short term, and provided that accumulation of class features in a "repeated pattern" to allow for long-term progression to epic levels. Hope the rest of the PrC's aren't like this, or it'll wind up in my no-fly list along with other smackdown books like Book of Exalted Deeds and Player's Guide to Fearun, and continued an ugly trend of power-creep.

EDIT--btw, is safe to assume the TN has the same hit die, BAB, save bonuses, and skill points as a MT or wizard (i.e. horrible in all areas)?

I haven't poured over every PrC in the book and added up the numbers, but the others don't seem as powerful as the TN, which really jumped out at me...

Yes, the saves, attack, skill pts, etc are all equal to MT or Wizard, lowest possible.

 

[jasamcarl]

To answer your question "would i trade two 9th level spells for 7th level and below cleric spells" not a chance. It sounds like the TN is a smidge more powerful than the MT, but still not as potent as the straight class. At the very least, the idea that this thing is absurdly powerful sounds like an exaggeration to say the least.

 

[just__al]

Wow! I'm drooling.

<shamless begging>
Anybody planning on buying this soon at amazon. I'd gladly take a share the love discount.

al - at - heardfamily - dot - net

</shamless begging>

 

[jester47]

Then make it a "positive burst" weapon. Sneak attack has been defined as the ability to hit important/sensitive bits with some accuracy. To turn it into nothing but a "bonus damage" mechanic robs it of its flavor.

I don't have the book, yet, so there may be something I'm missing. From what I am seeing, though, I've got to agree with Sean. Unless the weapon is somehow revealing vital spots or adding them where they didn't previously exist, sneak attack cannot be used.

First anyone reading this should go back and see my paragraph in the cited post about the language of this weapon ability. Also also it needs to be pointed out that Ghost Strike only works on Incorporeal undead. Against anything with a body, its a normal + whatever weapon. Also it works like a ghost touch weapon meaning that spirits can weild it. They can disarm an enemy, or sunder the weapon. This is very much a two way street.

I do not see the weapon as "revealing" or "creating" vital spots or adding them. I see it as having a property that allows for the disruption of the kind of negative energy that makes a ghost.

I see it kind of as an incorporeal undead vaccum. Like a magnet and a bunch of filings. You put the fililngs on a table top and spread them out. This is our wraith. If you have a magnet (our ghost strike weapon) and brush it by very quickly, you will get some filings (damaged wraith). The longer you leave the magnet in range of the filings it gets more (a critical). Then you could stick the magnet in the filings and use a circular motion to pick them up (a rogues sneak attack).

Thats the thing about the Rogue's sneak attack. He simply has time. He has more time to line up the shot and hit a vital. With this tool he has more time to stick the thing in the incorporeal undead and move it around some (as there are no vitals), thus draining it of its essesnce (like filings to a magnet) and doing more damage to the undead before it has a chance to react.

The limiting factors are the DM's common sense and the fact that for it to be any more than ghost touch certain favorable conditions have to be met. It comes no where close to making a rogue an incorporeal undead slayer, but might give him an edge in the occasional fight with them. This is ok. (well maybe not if you are playing a Ghostwalk campaign but...)

Aaron.

 

[Samurai]

I was thinking of going for TN with my currently 4th level Wizard-Necromancer but I realised it'd be a huge mistake for several reasons:

1) I only have wisdom 11 so I'd have to boost it to 12 at 8th level just to qualify for the class and I'd never get the high level cleric spells at all. (I didn't know about TN when I created the character, went for a straight wizard-necromancer build with str 7, dex 14, con 16, int 18, wis 11, cha 12.)
2) I'm just about to get into some real power from 5th to 7th level (Fireball, Charm Monster, Empowered Scorching Ray). It would mean putting that on hold for three levels.
3) I don't see this campaign ever going beyond 10th level anyway.
4) The party already has a cleric. As it's only a 3-player group I should stick to what I'm good at.

TN overpowered? Not for me.

Yes, all dual progression types sacrifice a bit in the short term in order to benefit in the long term. Meeting the entry requirements are where you are the weakest... a 6th lvl caster is much stronger than a 3/3 wizard cleric. Once you start gaining the dual progression, you begin to catch up though.

Ironically, in our game, I'm on the path to becoming a dual caster (Psionic Theurge). I was very happy just being a 7th lvl Psion and had no plans to multiclass, but then my character died. My god offered to return me to life only if I became a Cleric in his name... he said he needed me for a special task. While the party may have been able to get my body to a cleric somewhere for a Raise Dead spell, would it have worked if your own god didn't want it to (since he says he needed you to become a cleric for this quest)? Could the party even afford a Raise Dead (which are pretty expensive and we were not an incredibly rich party)? In character, how could I justify telling my god "no thanks..."? So, next level I'll be taking Cleric lvl 1, then shifting into the dual progressing Psychic Theurge ASAP. I'm really enjoying the character and campaign I'm in right now, so I hope we keep going long enough for that to happen...

 

[jasamcarl]

The answer seems pretty clear-cut. It's OTT.



Such is the nature of this board. The rule of thumb is "defend designers, blame players and DM's". You won't be able to get away with saying a class or feat is perhaps poorly-designed without folks crawling out of the woodwork to defend it. Now, if you were grousing about players or DM's who quote movie lines too much, you'd get 800 pages of rousing support like it was a major crisis. Welcome to ENWorld.



OK, so in addition to dual progression, the TN also still has the Necromantic Potence ability that allows him to combine all his divine and arcane levels when casting necromantic spells? And he gets bonus necromantic spell-like abilities up all the way up to 9th-level? OK, this is getting absurd really quickly. Anywhere where the TN starts to look like it's coming up short, we can quickly find where the design compensates to caulk up the hole to make sure the TN doesn't come up too short, if at all.

"He can't do as much damage with cone of cold...oh wait, yes he can...well, he can't do as much damage with horrid wilting...he comes up a dice short...see, it's fine? And hey, even if you co-opt every ability in the world, remember you only get to use one per round! Foolproof game design saves the day again!"

Yeah, right. Good arguing there, guys.

Incidentally, all this busines about max spellcasting levels for MT's and TN's being 15/15 or 17/17 or whatever seems to overlook the fact that 3.5e now provides core rules for epic progressions that allow a class to have levels that go beyond those listed in the class progression table. The DMG states the epic MT as being able to keep stacking levels on and on forever.

Now, if someone who has Libris Mortis can verify whether or not the TN's class co-opting class feature meets the criterion that it "accumulates as part of a repeated pattern", then it should increase pass 14th level as well, thereby allowing the TN access to hit 20/20.

Someone want to loose an argument.

You obviously haven't looked that closely at the epic progression for the MT. It gets half the spellcasting progression and fewer epic feats than any straight class would. And given how feat dependent epic spellcasting is, it renders the epic MT a wet blanket.

Forgetting about it. No, I'm just interpretting it correctly. Not to mention I haven't seen an epic prog for the TN yet, meaning that you would have to take 5 levels of the MT to reach the 20/20 point, and still wouldn't see any bonus epic feats. You wouldn't even be eligible for improved spell capacity at level 21.

 

[PeterDonis]

According to the promo material at WotC's site, the actual "translation" of the title is "From the Books of the Dead". Considering the title is supposedly "mangled celestial", the plural dative of "Libris Mortis" works okay, as I understand it.

No, a dative plural isn't correct--that would mean "to the books of the dead" or "for the books of the dead". "From the books of the dead" would be the ablative plural, "Ex Libris Mortis"--you need the preposition explicitly since there are a bunch of different ones that take the ablative case. This assumes that you allow "the dead" to be a singular noun, which is a little iffy, since it's really a plural term (in which case it would be "Ex Libris Mortium").

Sorry for the pedantry, but my high school Latin teacher would kill me if I let this go by.

 

[Milkman Dan]

Sacred Purifier - a destroyer of the undead (5 levels)

I am very interested in finding out what the prerequisites of this PrC are. At the very least, I'd like to know if it's available to Lawful Neutral clerics. Undead-hunting PrCs are on the rare side for neutral clerics.

 

[Samurai]

I am very interested in finding out what the prerequisites of this PrC are. At the very least, I'd like to know if it's available to Lawful Neutral clerics. Undead-hunting PrCs are on the rare side for neutral clerics.

Nope, at least not "by the book", though certainly a DM can decide that you are eligible if you meet all the other requirements and it fits you (and your diety's) focus.

Any Good
Minimum +5 Will Save bonus
Knowledge Religion 8 ranks
Feat: Extra Turning
Able to cast 2nd lvl Divine spells
Able to turn undead