Mobs

[Silveras]

Now when a mob is dispersed, I understand that 30% are dead, 30% are unconcious, and the rest are unharmed?

If this is true, it seems to me that forming a mob is only a good idea for low hit dice monsters. I don't have DMG II though, nor do I have my books with me. But it would be interesting to see an analysis for mobs of humans, mobs of lizard folk, mobs of medusae, etc., to see how beneficial forming a mob actually is for a monster at different HD.

As presented, Mobs don't form voluntarily. The creatures don't gather until any specific number is reached then "flame on" to mob status. The examples are a Riot (mob of humans) and Stampede (mob of Light Horses).

A mob is a cluster of emotionally charged creatures acting on emotion and not reason. In fact, they are unable to make any attacks that would require the individual members to take an action (no spells, spell-like abilities, breath weapons, etc. can be used). Continuous effects, like gaze attacks, function normally.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

WRT mobs, what I want to know is if cleave, great cleave, and/or combat reflexes give a damage bonus against them.....

 

[Silveras]

WRT mobs, what I want to know is if cleave, great cleave, and/or combat reflexes give a damage bonus against them.....

No, nothing is mentioned on that score.

Area-effect attacks do +50% damage to the Mob.

Mobs are described as having no discernible anatomy, and so are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, cannot be flanked, etc.

What I am beginning to think is an error is that the template mentions being able to inflict negative levels on the Mob by neutralizing its members with spells or effects that "target a specific number of creatures". It seems that for most purposes, you cannot target an individual within the Mob (for melee attacks, etc.); so it seems to me that you should not be able to do so with such spells, either.

 

[Simplicity]

No, nothing is mentioned on that score.

Area-effect attacks do +50% damage to the Mob.

Mobs are described as having no discernible anatomy, and so are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, cannot be flanked, etc.

What I am beginning to think is an error is that the template mentions being able to inflict negative levels on the Mob by neutralizing its members with spells or effects that "target a specific number of creatures". It seems that for most purposes, you cannot target an individual within the Mob (for melee attacks, etc.); so it seems to me that you should not be able to do so with such spells, either.

No, that makes sense. A negative level wipes out a HD... and some of their attack ability. It's a weird way of doing it admittedly, but it seems acceptable without creating new rules.

 

[UltimaGabe]

What I am beginning to think is an error is that the template mentions being able to inflict negative levels on the Mob by neutralizing its members with spells or effects that "target a specific number of creatures". It seems that for most purposes, you cannot target an individual within the Mob (for melee attacks, etc.); so it seems to me that you should not be able to do so with such spells, either.

As you mentioned, with a physical attack, you can't target an individual- your attack is simply dealt against the group as a whole. And, similarly, you said that you shouldn't be able to target individuals with spells.

Well, that's the thing- you can't.

They make no mention of targeting an individual within the mob, they simply say that any spell CAPABLE of targeting an individual within the mob, rather than having its total effect, simply gives the mob a negative level. A physical attack, however, DOES get to add its total effect- that is, damage.

 

[Silveras]

No, that makes sense. A negative level wipes out a HD... and some of their attack ability. It's a weird way of doing it admittedly, but it seems acceptable without creating new rules.

I don't have a problem with the negative level; I have a problem with being able to pick out individuals in the mob to affect with the spell (as UltimaGabe replied to).

 

[Simplicity]

I don't have a problem with the negative level; I have a problem with being able to pick out individuals in the mob to affect with the spell (as UltimaGabe replied to).

I see. Yeah, that is kind of weird, huh? It's kind of like a called shot in a mob.
I'm not sure how else you'd handle a disintegrate spell shot into a mob though...
Theoretically, it should have virtually no effect. Maybe it would have been better to just say single target spells HAVE no effect.

 

[Silveras]

As you mentioned, with a physical attack, you can't target an individual- your attack is simply dealt against the group as a whole. And, similarly, you said that you shouldn't be able to target individuals with spells.

Well, that's the thing- you can't.

They make no mention of targeting an individual within the mob, they simply say that any spell CAPABLE of targeting an individual within the mob, rather than having its total effect, simply gives the mob a negative level. A physical attack, however, DOES get to add its total effect- that is, damage.

Actually, they do mention targeting specific creatures.

Unlike standard swarms, mobs are made up of relatively small numbers of individual creatures, so spells or effects that target specific numbers of creatures can have an effect on the mob. Each specific creature that is slain, disabled, or otherwise incapacitated by spells or effects that target specific creatures bestows two negative levels on the mob.

Hold Person targets "One humanoid creature", and so is eligible for that use.

Mass Hold Person targets "One or more humanoid creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft apart", and so is NOT eligible for that use (the number affected is not specific).

Mass Inflict Light Wounds targets "One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft apart", and so IS eligible for use (if you considered One creature/level to be a specific number).

However, in cases like Hold Person, you must target an individual to cast the spell. If you can target an individual to cast the spell, it only seems fair that you should be able to target an individual for a melee attack, as well.


I suspect the intent was actually to let spells like Mass Hold Person be the ones that work, and the template should say "spells or effects that target a number of NON-specific creatures" instead of reading as it does.

 

[apesamongus]

No, that makes sense. A negative level wipes out a HD... and some of their attack ability. It's a weird way of doing it admittedly, but it seems acceptable without creating new rules.

Well, actually, it doesn't remove any attack ability at all. Mobs do set damage without needing to roll to hit. All the negative levels would affect would be grappling and saves.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

The abstract nature of the mob works pretty well I think. The group may be greater than the sum of its parts or it may be worse if trained warriors act like a bunch of blithering idiots. It also gives a hard mechanic to give cause for the archetypical 9th level fighter lord to take steps to quell civil unrest, by carrot or stick.

Importantly from a metagame perspective, the mob allows an easy way to run a large crowd without having to run averages in my head. It does recalibrate player expectations of how their pcs interact with the world, but if used sparingly and with good cause I reckon it will add to the campaign.