Mobs

[apesamongus]

Importantly from a metagame perspective, the mob allows an easy way to run a large crowd without having to run averages in my head. It does recalibrate player expectations of how their pcs interact with the world, but if used sparingly and with good cause I reckon it will add to the campaign.

It's not so much that it changes expectations, it's that it screws with niches and what certain spells/abilities/whatever are supposed to be good at.

Big group of weak opponents -
Fighter with great cleave/wwa = cuisinart
Wizard with fireball = new goblin kabob merchant
Wizard with charm person = pinata

Mob -
Fighter with great cleave/wwa = grappled and ripped to shreads
Wizard with fireball = ehh still has a chance, maybe
Wizard with charm person = probably still gets killed, but vastly weakens the mob

I don't think it's a huge leap to expect a new method for running large crouds of opponents should result in people good at taking out large crouds still being good at fighting large crouds and people poorly equiped to deal with them still being poorly equiped.

 

[Silveras]

It's not so much that it changes expectations, it's that it screws with niches and what certain spells/abilities/whatever are supposed to be good at.

Big group of weak opponents -
Fighter with great cleave/wwa = cuisinart
Wizard with fireball = new goblin kabob merchant
Wizard with charm person = pinata

Mob -
Fighter with great cleave/wwa = grappled and ripped to shreads
Wizard with fireball = ehh still has a chance, maybe
Wizard with charm person = probably still gets killed, but vastly weakens the mob

I don't think it's a huge leap to expect a new method for running large crouds of opponents should result in people good at taking out large crouds still being good at fighting large crouds and people poorly equiped to deal with them still being poorly equiped.

You're still missing one important point. The Mob is not JUST a large number of opponents fighting in an organized manner.

Your "Fighter with great cleave/wwa" is trained to fight against a number of simultaneous melee opponents - each individually occupying its "fighting space" with room to wield its weapons - NOT against a crowd of beggars in a bazaar, or the crowd in a mosh pit, where 3 creatures are crammed into each "space" and the press of bodies is continuous and overwhelming.

 

[apesamongus]

Your "Fighter with great cleave/wwa" is trained to fight against a number of simultaneous melee opponents - each individually occupying its "fighting space" with room to wield its weapons - NOT against a crowd of beggars in a bazaar, or the crowd in a mosh pit, where 3 creatures are crammed into each "space" and the press of bodies is continuous and overwhelming.

Yet, he has no trouble fighting a hoard of goblins with swarm fighting or with cleaving through a group of pixies all occupying the same space.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I'd be happy to break a few eggs to make an omelette, and this comes from a dm & player pov where my character will have cleave. The mob does have huge glaring tactical weaknesses to be exploited, it has 30hd but it only sounds about CR6.

This rule does empower the wild crowd with a real mechanic to back up the supposed threat of the mob although I'm going to houserule the mob can do subdual damage if commanded by an demagogue; I want the crowd to be able to threaten to subdue a mid level character before parading them back through to the town square with a kangaroo court & burning stakes set up. With the mob I can present a top down map of the town and have a Pac-Man game of cat & mouse of either escape or evade the mobs to get to the demagogue.

My dm campaign is heading towards a French Revolution-like Terror climactic development and this new Mob rule is going to give me an easy to use mechanic. There are failings with it but they pale in comparison with the current method of crowd resolution - i.e. ad hoc houserules with huge holes in it & cumbersome % average damage calculations. There probably will need to be houserules for cleave & whirlwind but I'm happy to do a relatively minor patch up job for a better fit... then again, after saying that WotC will have playtested it.

 

[Silveras]

Yet, he has no trouble fighting a hoard of goblins with swarm fighting or with cleaving through a group of pixies all occupying the same space.

Not to be snide, but "hoard" is treasure, "horde" is a mass of creatures.

A horde of goblins with swarmfighting are practiced and trained to fight effectively from the same space; it requires each of them to have the same feat - to have studied the specialized methods and techniques involved in close-quarters fighting. They are able to keep separate from each other enough to remain effective normal melee combatants.

Uhm.. Pixies (per the 3.5 MM) are Small Fey. They need a 5-foot square each of fighting space, just as Halflings and Gnomes (also small creatures) do (3.5 Player's Handbook, p.149). If your DM is running "a group of pixies all occupying the same space", then s/he's using house rule versions of Pixies, or some other variant. Or, they all need to have Swarmfighting, too, and then we are back to just the one example, as it no longer matters whether we are discussing Pixies with Swarmfighting or Goblins with Swarmfighting.

Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures require less than one 5-foot square each of fighting space, and can share a single 5-foot square without getting in each other's way. This is also explained in the section of the Players' Handbook "Big and Little Creatures in Combat" (PH, p.149 again).

Of these, only the swarmfighting example is similar to the Mob, in that the Mob puts 3 creatures into the same 1-creature's fighting space and Swarmfighting (Complete Warrior, p.105) puts 2 or more. However, as I said, Swarmfighting involves special skills to allow them to fight effectively, and that is STILL not the same case as a Mob (picture a crowd of irate shoppers looking for that one toy EVERYONE wants at Christmas season).

I have no problem with the idea that the special training that allows Swarmfighters to keep out of each other's way also allows them to be individually targeted, while Mobs are another case altogether.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In any event, I think one has to wonder about any mob rules in which the line of 15 riot police (even if statted as mounted 4th level fighters) have no chance against the angry mob of 30 black block protesters. My observations of the evening news indicates that a mounted charge tends to route mobs and a line of riot police in gear will tend to hold them back rather than get ripped to shreds.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

What's missing about the point is that fighting in an organized manner is supposed to be more effective rather than less effective. Given all I've heard about the mob template, the logical response to an orc invasion would not be "OK, everyone, let's all get our armor and weapons and meet in the town square to form up into a pike square then march out and cut them off at the pass." Instead, it would be to get everyone riled up so that you could use the mob rules. That way you're nearly guaranteed victory with no losses.

To call that kind of devaluation of equipment and training counterintuitive is like calling the sky blue.

You're still missing one important point. The Mob is not JUST a large number of opponents fighting in an organized manner.

 

[Silveras]

What's missing about the point is that fighting in an organized manner is supposed to be more effective rather than less effective. Given all I've heard about the mob template, the logical response to an orc invasion would not be "OK, everyone, let's all get our armor and weapons and meet in the town square to form up into a pike square then march out and cut them off at the pass." Instead, it would be to get everyone riled up so that you could use the mob rules. That way you're nearly guaranteed victory with no losses.

To call that kind of devaluation of equipment and training counterintuitive is like calling the sky blue.

In general, the mob is probably less effective than normal fighting for most creatures (other than Kobolds, or human Commoners). Mobs get a flat 30 HD, regardless of their makeup, with the type based on the race of the base creature. 12 Ogres (Giants), 48 Humans, and 48 Lizard Folk each form 30d8 Mobs (+Con bonuses as appropriate to the race base). 12 Ogres should have 48 HD, + bonus hp. 48 Lizard Folk should have 96d8+96, collectively. 48 Human Commoners, or 48 Kobolds, should have 48d4.

Mobs do not make melee attacks. They do not use any weapons (directly), nor can they use any skills, feats, etc., that require an action. They are mobile 'area effects' that do 5d6 bludgeoning damage to creatures whose squares they enter. The AC of a Mob is as the base creature, -4, because the Mob is Gargantuan in size. An Orc invasion would likely make minced-meat out of any Mob that tried to fight them off that way, using ranged attacks to "kill" the Mob long before it reached them. (A riot after the Orcs had dispersed to start pillaging would be different.)

When a mob disperses because of damage from lethal attacks, 30% of the creatures are considered killed, and another 30% unconscious. "Victory with no losses" ? 60% casualties is hardly what I would consider "no losses".