Modified Cleric

[Victim]

First of all, I think spontaneously casting domain spells is a poor idea. Clerics were given spontaneous heal casting not because it would fit every god, but because it makes them more playable. Without spontaneous heals, a cleric needs to keep many slots in reserve for healing. Either that, or clerics won't prepare heals, screw the party and use most of their spells on whatever. Ask druids how many healing spells they preapre; I've seen them take one or two, but not enough to keep the group going. Also, domain spells work pretty well as once per day tricks. However, an 11th level cleric spontaneously casting chain lightning might place the wizard down a bit. The disadvantage of being restricted to domains isn't that bad, players will simply pick an appropriate package of abilities. Spontaneous Flame Strike anyone?

If I wanted to change clerics, I'd probably nerf base attack or fort saves, along with the heavy armor prof. Full spell casting and pretty good combat aren't the best combination.

 

[Forrester]

The disadvantage of being restricted to domains isn't that bad, players will simply pick an appropriate package of abilities. Spontaneous Flame Strike anyone?

Okay, suppose they take the Sun domain. They're stuck with Endure Elements at 1st level and Heat Metal at 2nd level. Not exactly power spells to be spontaneously casting. Searing Light is okay, but there's often 3rd level spells that are much better cast (like Dispel Magic), and Flame Shield is only good if the cleric is a melee monster. And if he is, he might have better things to do with his time than cast Flame Strikes for his 5th level spells.

And his 6th and 7th level Sun spells aren't great either.

Spontaneously casting domain spells *works* as an idea because most of the spells aren't upper-echelon. Do you think there are sorcerers out there who have learned Endure Elements as one of their spells to be cast spontaneously?

I don't think so.

 

[Petrosian]

Spontaneously casting domain spells *works* as an idea because most of the spells aren't upper-echelon. Do you think there are sorcerers out there who have learned Endure Elements as one of their spells to be cast spontaneously?

I don't think so.

Do you play sorcerers? Endure elements is a GREAT, almost a must, spell, lasting 24 hours, usable on anyone. its the perfect "i got slots left over and its bedtime" spell. 5 pts is not overwhelming but hey, after a svae it helps significantly.

Now on to the topic at hand...

I use SPONT domain and no SPONT cure/inflict. It works great. The thing people miss is that without healing spells on the fly the cleric, if he wants to heal the party, will be PREPARING them in droves. The vast majority of his spells will be prepared cures or SPONT domain spells and little else. So the clerics become very much representatives of their diety, instead of just some pale simulation of a mage with some spont cures.

"- Clerics are not automatically proficient with heavy armor. They are still proficient with light and medium armor and shields. "

Trivial change. More agile clerics will result. IMO not needed but not breaking.

"- Clerics do not get the extra domain spell per day. Clerics do not spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells. Instead, the cleric has access to all of the domains of his/her deity and can spontaneously cast spells from these domains. (I liked this change because it made picking one's god matter not only in the roleplaying aspect but in inherent powers as well.) "

Loss of domain spell unnecessary. Need to address sdomain spells not on cleric list and CAN THEY NOW be prepared as it makes a dif for metamagic.

"- Clerics do not receive the powers from two domains automatically. Instead, they choose a power from among his/her deity's domains at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20. "

DRASTIC power up. Bad idea in general and if you are WEAKENING clerics don't add power up rules.

"- Anyone turning undead use the tables below:
Turning Check Result Most Powerful Undead Affected
Up to 0 Always fail
1 - 3 CL - 5
4 - 6 CL - 4
7 - 9 CL - 3
10 - 12 CL - 2
13 - 15 CL - 1
16 - 18 CL
19 - 21 CL + 1
22 - 24 CL + 2
25+ CL + 3
- Clerics may only attempt to turn once per encounter."

Does this affect other classes turning? Are you about to make the paladin weaker or will he become the premier turner?

Frankly, I wouldn't mess with the staples like turning.

***
IMO and IMX, clerics look strong on paper but do not overshadow anyone. They tend to be the second best at everything except undead and healing. My gripe was the generic nature, with everyone spont-cure-inflict and I fixed that with spont-domain spells. They are a great backup man and usually do not drive the action the way a fighter or a mage or a rogue do.

 

[Victim]

Okay, suppose they take the Sun domain. They're stuck with Endure Elements at 1st level and Heat Metal at 2nd level. Not exactly power spells to be spontaneously casting. Searing Light is okay, but there's often 3rd level spells that are much better cast (like Dispel Magic), and Flame Shield is only good if the cleric is a melee monster. And if he is, he might have better things to do with his time than cast Flame Strikes for his 5th level spells.

And his 6th and 7th level Sun spells aren't great either.

Spontaneously casting domain spells *works* as an idea because most of the spells aren't upper-echelon. Do you think there are sorcerers out there who have learned Endure Elements as one of their spells to be cast spontaneously?

I don't think so.

I use endure elements every day as a cleric. Also, since he's spontaneously casting, he could use higher level slots for lower level ones. Or metamagic'd lower level ones. So "poor" spells will get bypassed by empowered or extended low level spells.
Flameshield is also nice for characters other than melee monsters. First of all, it works of you getting hit, so you just let someone hurt themselves on the shield while you do other things - like heal yourself. Also, it gives 1/2 damage from fire or cold attacks, and isn't resistance so it would be able to stack with endure elements spell. Fire seeds rule! Ranged touch for damage equal to your level in d8s is bad how?

Also, since characters get multiple domains, a player could just choose domains with good spells at different levels. For example, if someone doesn't like endure elements, they could take Good as their other domain to cast Protection from evil - a very nice spell to have ready all the time.

 

[Forrester]

Do you play sorcerers? Endure elements is a GREAT, almost a must, spell, lasting 24 hours, usable on anyone. its the perfect "i got slots left over and its bedtime" spell. 5 pts is not overwhelming but hey, after a svae it helps significantly.

By definition, if it only helps 5pts, it doesn't help significantly .
Not, at least, for 13th level characters. To call it a "must" spell is ridiculous. Maybe it's the sorcerer's 4th or 5th spell picked. Maybe.

 

[Petrosian]

I usually take it asmy third (after mage armor and magic missile), character issues notwithstanding.

5 pts off the damage AFTER a save is the equivalent of dropping three dice off each fireball, cone of cold, breath weapon etc. Its 24 hour duration makes it perfect for "no loss" end of day casting so that tomorrow you have EE spells all around and full spell suites.

It stops melfs arrows and all those "add d6 fire" weapons cold...

Sure the 10d6 fireball still stings and this one spell doens't make you laughing immune... but for a mage with few HP the difference between take 17 after a save vs a 10d6 fireball and 12 is BIG. The difference between taking 35 or 31 might well be life and death for a guy who HD probably run about that same per level.

By definition, if it only helps 5pts, it doesn't help significantly .
Not, at least, for 13th level characters. To call it a "must" spell is ridiculous. Maybe it's the sorcerer's 4th or 5th spell picked. Maybe.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

My PCs have gotten warmer to that spell. It's the only elemental protection spell that works all day.

Last adventure involved a LOT of acid and a lot of encounters. By the end of the session, for the toughest fight yet, only the PCs who had opted for cheap endure element (acid) potions still had any acid protection left.

Oh, and they're level 10.