Modifying a Rogue: What this worth?

[Brother Shatterstone]

Let me give my normal, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but its not really a house rule yet.

Okay, for the most part, the rogue class is the only class that can find and remove traps but what would it be worth if you removed that class ability?

Would it be worth a bonus feat at first level?

What about removing sneak attack?

What would you offer in place of these class abilities?

Yes I am insane…

 

[Kweezil]

Trapfinding: Since the rogue is the only class that can find and disarm certain traps, removing that ability from them presumably removes that limitation (unless there're a whole lot of undetectable and unstoppable traps in the world ). It will remobe the rogue as an essential party member, as anyone with a decent Search skill will be able to spot the traps, though disarming will be harder as Disarm is a rarer class skill. If you want to broaden the class options this could be a good thing, and it allows the rogue to be more roguish rather than thiefy. IMHO, it's not worth anything if you remove it, except maybe a +2 to one (maybe two) class skill, to represent personal fields of study.

Sneak Attack: Unearthed Arcana has a little bit on this, basically a varient rogue with Fighter bonus feats every odd level in place of sneak attack. It would make them much more of a swashbuckler than a sneaky rogue, which might be a good thing depending on personal style preferences.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Okay, for the most part, the rogue class is the only class that can find and remove traps but what would it be worth if you removed that class ability?

Depends. How many traps are in the campaign?

If you're going to run a game with no traps, say a game based on ... oh ... I dunno ... Winnie the Pooh. Then you aren't taking away anything. Pooh gets his paw caught in the honey jar and falls into the Hefalump trap. Both of these aren't traps, they're really more like plots. So, all you've really done is tell Pooh's player that those are skills he doesn't need to worry about much.

But let's say you're running a game that's strong on traps, say a game based on ... oh ... I dunno ... Dungeons & Dragons: The Movie. Well, that's a big deal. Ridley has to make his way through the School of Magic and find his way through the dreaded Thief Maze. Traps a-go-go in that module! Here, you're taking away a valuable skill that is worth a feat or two. Otherwise Ridley might die before the end and we don't want that do we, guys?


Guys?


Guys?

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Trapfinding:+snip+ It will remobe the rogue as an essential party member, as anyone with a decent Search skill will be able to spot the traps, though disarming will be harder as Disarm is a rarer class skill. +snip+

No thats not what I was asking for. This would be a rogue variant and that other rogues would be the only ones that could find traps.

Sneak Attack: Unearthed Arcana has a little bit on this, basically a varient rogue with Fighter bonus feats every odd level in place of sneak attack. It would make them much more of a swashbuckler than a sneaky rogue, which might be a good thing depending on personal style preferences.

Hmmm how did I miss that? That's pretty much what I'm looking for but I still don't want the trap finding ability to be there. Thanks!

Also I think this variant would be a better swashbuckler than the swashbuckler core class that WotC just came out with. (complete warrior?)

Depends. How many traps are in the campaign?

I honestly don't know I'm not the DM... Good question though, very good question.

 

[Kemrain]

I'd allow the Rogue to swap out sneak attack progression for feats, but I'd deffinately allow them to spend a feat on +1d6 Sneak Attack. It's just too useful to some characters, and even a 5d6 sneak attack is impressive when you get 7 attacks a round.

Also, I'd never limit Rogues to fighter feats.. Skill Focus and the +2/+2 feats are just too useful to a skillmonkey. However, the traps issue is a fuzzy one. Like BG said, it's value is completely campaign dependant. It could be worthless, or worth 2 feats! Personally, I'd make it worth a +2/+2 feat, because making it worthy of a combat feat turns the already front-loaded Altered-Rogue (up a feat from Sneak Attack) into more of a Feat Machine than a Fighter. A Human Rogue could start with 4 Combat feats, and is that really what you're looking for?

- Kemrain the Sneak.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

A Human Rogue could start with 4 Combat feats, and is that really what you're looking for?

No not at all... I'm look for a very skilled class that has a more nimble and agile approach to combat and also not one that can sneak attack a opponent. If that makes sense.

 

[der_kluge]

Maybe a better question is, what kind of concept are you shooting for? If it's a swashbuckler, you might check out Complete Warrior, as there is a swashbuckler core class in that, that seems pretty good.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Sneak Attack:[/b] Unearthed Arcana has a little bit on this, basically a varient rogue with Fighter bonus feats every odd level in place of sneak attack. It would make them much more of a swashbuckler than a sneaky rogue, which might be a good thing depending on personal style preferences.

Does anyone know what page this is on? All I can find is the wilderness rogue variant.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Maybe a better question is, what kind of concept are you shooting for? If it's a swashbuckler, you might check out Complete Warrior, as there is a swashbuckler core class in that, that seems pretty good.

Have it, seen it, wasn't that impressed.

 

[Spatula]

I would say that removing Trapfinding is worth nothing at all. The DC 20 limitation on finding traps is an artificial one that allows rogues (and only rogues) to be the trap-handlers in a skill system where theoretically anyone could have a high Search skill. If you don't want to deal with traps, don't put any ranks into the Search skill.