Mohrgs

[Marauder]

Hi all,

I couldn't help but wonder - is a Mohrg's tongue attack really a Touch Attack? The MM and SRD entries seem to follow the same format as other Touch Attacks, but I don't see how it's tongue can hit a PC's armour and induce paralysis from that... I would think that it would have to touch flesh to cause paralysis, and this would mean a normal attack roll. Of course, it has Improved Grab so should it succeed at a grapple check after grappling I could rule that it hit with its tongue, dealing no damage but forcing a Fort save to avaoid paralysis (at which point it's next grapple check would be a coup de grace should they succumb, in which it snaps the unfortunate PC's neck should they fail the Fort save to avoid instant death).

I know I'm free to house rule this, but if I do will that affect it's CR of 8 and, if so, by how much?

Thoughts? - and thanks in advance for any suggestions!

 

[kreynolds]

but I don't see how it's tongue can hit a PC's armour and induce paralysis from that... I would think that it would have to touch flesh to cause paralysis

That is the flaw of your argument. You can't apply strict circumstances to an abstract combat system. If you are wearing full plate, and I roll for my attack and miss your AC, it doesn't automatically mean that my weapon simply swished through the air and completely missed you, either because your that fast or I attacked that poorly. Your AC and hit points are representative of your ability to deflect attacks harmlessly away, either with your weapon or your armor does the trick by absorbing the blow completely, dodge attacks, and turn deadly hits into glancing blows.

Try to look at it with a more abstract perspective. I know it's wierd, but that's the way the combat system works.

 

[Grazzt]

Just like kreynolds said...

(Damn- I've been agreeing with a lot of what he posts lately....gotta get that checked out. )

 

[Marauder]

Re: Re: Mohrgs

I roll for my attack and miss your AC, it doesn't automatically mean that my weapon simply swished through the air and completely missed you

I understand that concept - it is just as easy to hit a character in full plate as it is an unarmoured character, except that a regular attack would 'miss' the full-plate armoured character because it is deflected by said armour (hence the higher AC).

Perhaps my following assumption is wrong, but I believe that a Mohrg's tongue attack should have to hit exposed flesh in order to induce paralysis. It would be harder to do that to a character in full plate than it would be an unarmoured character, as the former is literally encased in steel. Therefore this implies a 'normal attack' to see if this attack can touch flesh (for my assumption anyway).

As a related example: the Carrion Crawler. It has 8 tentacle attacks that do nothing but induce paralysis in the victim should they be hit, but these tentacles require a regular attack roll in order to succeed in hitting the opponent. That seems exactly the same as a Mohrg; however, for some reason it is listed as a touch attack. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

If my assumption is flawed, is there a valid reason why the Mohrg's tongue attack is a touch attack? I can see my player's asking me the same question should they get hit by it and I would like to have a plausible answer, because if they argue that it should be a regular attack I would have not have a valid defense.

Thanks!

 

[dcollins]

The following springs to mind:

The carrion crawler's ability is Extraordinary (likely chemical, not able to go through armor).
The mohrg's ability is Supernatural (magical, and apparently able to emanate through armor material).

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Mohrgs

it is just as easy to hit a character in full plate as it is an unarmoured character, except that a regular attack would 'miss' the full-plate armoured character because it is deflected by said armour (hence the higher AC).

In regards to the mechanics of the combat system, the presence of armor or lack of armor doesn't make a difference. If you are heavily armored, I might miss because of your armor, as it deflects the attack. If you are wearing no armor but have an really good Dex, then I might miss you because you can dodge so effectively. However, the very nature of the combat system does not guarantee that these are the reasons I missed.

As I stated before, if you are heavily armored, it is possible that the reason I missed you is because you managed to dodge that attack, or it could be just as possible that I did indeed hit you, but my attack bounced off of your armor. The same applies if you are unarmored but with an extremely high Dex. It is possible that you dodged my attack, but it is also quite possible that I did indeed hit you, though I could only manage slapping the flat of my blade against you, and you dodged so quickly, the effect was negligable.

I see where you confusion might come from in regards to the Mohrg, but you have to keep in mind that many creatures have many different attack forms. Some must actually physically strike you in such a manner that it requires much more effort, such as a slam attack, claw attack, bite attack, etc. Other attack forms are much easier, such as eye ray spells, which only require a ranged touch attack, or even worse, gaze attacks, which only require line of sight.

As dcollins pointed out, the Mohrg's ability is a supernatural one, and in regards to magic, the difficulty of an attack form is certainly not universally applied, as is evident by eye rays and gaze attacks, among other things. A carrior crawler has to physically strike you, which is much more difficult.

However, just because an attack form is magical in nature doesn't necessarily mean that it's easier to hit something. Let's take the carrion crawler and the mohrg for example. The carrion crawler is a large creature, which stands to reason that it's tentacles will be large as well, thus they will be heavier, more unwieldly, and will likely lack the precision that a rapier in a fighter's hand might have. Conversely, a Mohrg is a medium-size creature, the same size as you and I. Ever looked at your tongue in the mirror? It's arguably not the size of a tentacle. But does a Mohrg have a normal human tongue? Apparently not. It does, after all, have a magical paralyzing effect, which human tongues do not. In short, a tongue is a much smaller device, and for a Mohrg, it is apparently quite adept at slipping that tounge between armor plates, through the eye slits of your helm, etc, etc.

Each monster is different, some of them using very unique attack forms, so you can't universaly apply a combat mechanic to every single one of them. If you could, the monster manual would be half the size, as there would be far less room to create new types of attacks and monster abilities.

EDIT: To the rest of you reading this, I'm willing to wager that it will take less than 8 hours for someone to completely twist my "tongue" argument into something perverted, but maybe that won't happen. We're grown ups, right?

 

[Marauder]

Yes, this could become a minefield of double-entendres...

In short, a tongue is a much smaller device, and for a Mohrg, it is apparently quite adept at slipping that tounge between armor plates, through the eye slits of your helm

... and that will be my argument.

Without the touch attack it isn't really worth it's CR 8.

It's funny you should mention creature sizes. I am running the Dungeon Mag adventure 'Headless' which will tie in neatly with the Bloodstone quartet of modules (where Orcus is the main nemesis, although this isn't immediately clear to the players). The Mohrgs in 'Headless' are of Frost Giants (and are thus double the Hit Dice and of Large size. The attack bonus is +17 melee touch and the Fort save DC is 24 (10 + 1/2 HD). By doubling the Hit Dice, the creature effectively becomes CR 10 and I have a feeling that 8 of these undead horror is more than a match for seven 13th level PCs (even though the EL is 16, which is challenging but not fatal).

Thanks KR for helping me validate this!

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mohrgs

EDIT: To the rest of you reading this, I'm willing to wager that it will take less than 8 hours for someone to completely twist my "tongue" argument into something perverted, but maybe that won't happen. We're grown ups, right?

Indeed.

PS. I'd change it to a normal attack, myself. Just my preference.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Hi all,

I couldn't help but wonder - is a Mohrg's tongue attack really a Touch Attack? The MM and SRD entries seem to follow the same format as other Touch Attacks, but I don't see how it's tongue can hit a PC's armour and induce paralysis from that... I would think that it would have to touch flesh to cause paralysis, and this would mean a normal attack roll. Of course, it has Improved Grab so should it succeed at a grapple check after grappling I could rule that it hit with its tongue, dealing no damage but forcing a Fort save to avaoid paralysis (at which point it's next grapple check would be a coup de grace should they succumb, in which it snaps the unfortunate PC's neck should they fail the Fort save to avoid instant death).

I know I'm free to house rule this, but if I do will that affect it's CR of 8 and, if so, by how much?

Thoughts? - and thanks in advance for any suggestions!

I actually like your suggestion. I think it makes a lot more sense than the "tongue as touch attack because they said it is". After all, they didn't even get the right picture for the Mohrg in the MM, did they?

Rather than something coming out at the adventurers and fencing with its tongue, I think it would be a more memorable encounter if the morhg grappled someone (which *is* a touch attack) with its improved grab, then the tongue darts out to the characters face, possibly paralysing them. The Coup de Gras fits well there too.

edit/ I would reduce its CR to 7 in this case

Cheers

 

[Xarlen]

Perhaps it's a touch attack in the sense that it pierces through the armor, period. It plows through. Or, more conventionally, it simply has to 'Touch' you, and you're overcome with paralysis due to fear, or disgust, or whatever. Basicly, he 'Tags' you with his tongue, and you freeze.

I know the system is weird, but think about it: If a character is in Full plate, and a helm, then he's shot with a Disintegrate spell, HE is dissolved, but his armor is not. That's just, by the books, how the system works. Weird, I know, but still...