D&D 3E/3.5 Monk 3.5

[Nail]

He has -1 to hit compared to your build and didn't cheese Stunning Fist DCs, but he has more hp, a better initiative, and more skill points.

I'm confused; are you saying that your build is just as good as mine in a campaign with a moderate number of combats (lets say 2 per session)? That's demonstrably false.

Each of my Mnk's hits do 8.5 hp of damage, each of your Mnk's hits do only 4.5...and there will be fewer of them. A difference of 1 in attack rolls is far more important than a difference of 1 in Init rolls, since you'll be rolling Attack much more often than Init.

A typical opponent of CR 4 has 46 hp and AC 16. On average my Mnk kills it in 6 rounds, your Mnk takes 11 rounds. Almost double the time! Yoowch!

IOW, your Mnk doesn't contribute much to offence. ...And by contributing to offence, my Mnk also contributes to the party's defence.

The difference in hp and AC is small ....if you'd like, we can calculate how long our Mnks would last against a CR 4 foe. You'd find the difference in life span is minimal.

Look, don't take this personally: Mnks that are "Dex" Mnks tend to be poor combatants. If that's okay with you (and your party -- you are part of a team after all), then being a poor combatant isn't a big deal.

He would be a rogue's best friend.

Both Mnks would be. There is no difference there.

If you're talking about characters purely from their ability to knock out opponents, I agree your build is better but come on...this is D&D, not a computer game.

Ah.

How is my build like a computer game, while yours is not? I'm unclear on the difference with respect to the computer analogy.

An even better variation with the human may be to take your first level as a rogue - the sneak attack can compensate for the lower strength and your skill points go through the roof!

I agree, multiclassing is the way to go (for a few levels). But the OP wanted a Monk, so....

 

[Nail]

Nail, what about taking Weapon Focus instead of Imp Grapple at third level?

True.

The question to grapple with is: "Are there opponents in this DMs game that can/should be grappled?" If the answer to that question is "usually not", then Improved Grapple is a poor choice.

I must admit, when looking over the Mnk weapon choices I was surprised to see that glaive and guisarme weren't on the list. (It's been a while since I played a Mnk!) So I suupose if you thiink the "trip/reach monkey" is a good idea, then you could blow a feat on a trip/reach weapon (spiked chain, anyone?).

 

[Tclynch]

Yep, I changed my char and took Weapon Focus- Spike Chain....

 

[Nail]

Yep, I changed my char and took Weapon Focus- Spike Chain....

That's great....but you'll need proficiency with it first!

 

[Nail]

So, Tclynch: post your revised PC?

 

[Franky]

Hi chaps .. did some searching around before I found this forum ,, you have answered a load of my questions about being a Monk (About to take mine into a campaign for first time ever)

Appreciate all your advice .. could use some more tho .. Bear with me as the following may sound a bit crazy ...

(Campaign variant of) Halfling Mnk10
STR 14
DEX 22, (Gloves of DEX +4)
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 20, (Periapt of WIS +4)
CHA 8

Init +7; Spd 50
AC:26 (Flatfooted:20 Touch:26) (added Ring of protection +2)

ATK: 14/14/9 (1d8+2, Unarmed strike Flurry)
SV : Fort +8, Ref +14, Will +13

Skills: Balance +15, Climb +12, Hide +13, Jump +15, Move Silently +15, Tumble +18

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Defensive Throw, Dodge, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse.


So here goes the plan, remember this is my first Monk ..
The idea is to wander into melee combat nonchalantly, if I incurr an AoO my AC flies up to 31+ due to mobility etc. then the poor fool who tries it ends up on his arse due to defensive throw and improved trip. from then on it's all gravy. if there are spellcasters then they will get charged (Add feat: Leap attack at lvl 12) bit of stunning fist, mince a bit of face and repeat.

I don't intend to do a lot of damage, just be a halfli... pain in the ass !

 

[Technik4]

I'm confused; are you saying that your build is just as good as mine in a campaign with a moderate number of combats (lets say 2 per session)? That's demonstrably false.

It depends on your perspective. If the party splits up and goes after one foe each, I agree your build is better. But if the party is fighting as a team, then having one member who can generate a high AC while flanking or alternately harass spell-casters is a valuable member.

Each of my Mnk's hits do 8.5 hp of damage, each of your Mnk's hits do only 4.5...and there will be fewer of them. A difference of 1 in attack rolls is far more important than a difference of 1 in Init rolls, since you'll be rolling Attack much more often than Init.

I don't think a +1 to hit is a huge thing to get upset about. I agree, the damage will be lower, but my character would be focused on defense, AC, and the occasional flank/charge/stun.

The difference in hp and AC is small ....if you'd like, we can calculate how long our Mnks would last against a CR 4 foe. You'd find the difference in life span is minimal.

Again, I'm not going to quibble, but with Dodge and Fighting Defensively (or tumbling with Mobility) my build is more likely to get into a flanking position without getting hit, and does have a few extra hp for when he gets there

A typical opponent of CR 4 has 46 hp and AC 16. On average my Mnk kills it in 6 rounds, your Mnk takes 11 rounds. Almost double the time! Yoowch!

Again, this goes back to realistically how often a level 4 character will fight a CR 4 opponent alone.

IOW, your Mnk doesn't contribute much to offence. ...And by contributing to offence, my Mnk also contributes to the party's defence.

I agree a good offense is a strong defense, but over a few rounds (the length of combat) the damage is not that different. Lets assume 4 rounds of combat, the monk gets a standard action worth of attacks in round 1, then can flurry or move + attack in the next 3 rounds. Personally, I would be moving around the battlefield to get flanking positions (I imagine you would too) which rules out flurry. So over these 4 rounds, assuming we hit during 3 of them, your monk would do 12 more damage (not an insignifcant amount of damage!). However, how much will the party's fighter have done? Or the wizard? The cleric? People don't typically play monks to be damage-dealers and personally I down-play that in my dex-based monks. Instead, I am moving all around the battlefield, aiding characters that are in a tight spot, and occasioanlly landing an important (I was going to say 'critical', but don't mean the d&d concept) stunning hit.

Look, don't take this personally: Mnks that are "Dex" Mnks tend to be poor combatants. If that's okay with you (and your party -- you are part of a team after all), then being a poor combatant isn't a big deal.

There is a difference between a character that can single-handedly defeat foes (which I would not say your monk is much better at, to be honest they would both die against a typical CR 4+ threat alone) and a character that meaningfully contributes to combat. I think both builds can contribute to combat (in different ways - Dodge and Mobility greatly enhance my build's ability to get somewhere without taking damage). Only one really has anything to do outside of combat however

How is my build like a computer game, while yours is not? I'm unclear on the difference with respect to the computer analogy. I agree, multiclassing is the way to go (for a few levels). But the OP wanted a Monk, so....

Your build sacrifices mental abilities for physical ones, a typical strategy in computer games where mental abilities are largely irrelevant (Icewind Dale or Myth Drannor for instance). In my experience at a d&d table these mental abilities come up more often and can lead someone without them to just play for the combat (since thats all their character excels at). This may frustrate the other players who are playing for NPC reactions, plot, and substance instead of just tactical combat. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for playing up weaknesses (and I love a good combat!), but a half-orc monk with a 6 cha (and an 8 int!) would be pretty boring in most of the games I've played in. YMMV, of course.

 

[Nail]

If the party splits up and goes after one foe each, I agree your build is better.

You've mis-understood the analysis. Using one opponent was for comparison purposes. The results would be the same (only more complicated) against other scenarios: wolf-pack tactics, swarm tactics, teamwork v.s loner, etc. Just like in the simplified scenario, the Dex monk does far more poorly than the Str Mnk.

Which Mnk build does more damage more reliably? The one I posted (or "the Str Mnk" ).

Which Mnk will survive longer in a fight? Both have about the same survivability. (Con is easily switched in the Str Mnk build; that's not the defining char.)

Which Mnk will be more fun to play? YMMV. I've often found that those PCs that do less damage in fights tend to be less fun for lots of different types of players (not just me).

I don't think a +1 to hit is a huge thing to get upset about

The numbers disagree with you. And if we took Darklone's suggestion, we could ditch Impr. Grapple for Weapon Focus and make the difference +2.

(or tumbling with Mobility) my build is more likely to get into a flanking position without getting hit

Tumbling negates AoOs, so no need for Mobility. And both Mnks have tumble.

I agree a good offense is a strong defense, but over a few rounds (the length of combat) the damage is not that different. Lets assume 4 rounds of combat....

Over 4 rounds against a BBEG (assume AC 16), the Str Mnk does 32.1 hp dam, the Dex Mnk does 15.4 hp dam.

Put bluntly: The Str Mnk does over twice the damage of the Dex Mnk. Explain how that is not significant.

to be honest they would both die against a typical CR 4+ threat alone.

You and I agree here!

In my experience at a d&d table these mental abilities come up more often.....

Your Dex Mnk has no "mental abilities", and only 1 "social ability": Sense Motive. Any other difference between the two Mnks in the "mental ability" department is completely role-play. And that's not "computer game" stuff, is it?

It seems like you are saying: "If you want to play a half-orc, you should just play CRPGs!"

 

[Nail]

So here goes the plan, remember this is my first Monk ..
The idea is to wander into melee combat nonchalantly, if I incurr an AoO my AC flies up to 31+ due to mobility etc. then the poor fool who tries it ends up on his arse due to defensive throw and improved trip.

With your Str and size, tripping will be difficult. (Your effective Trip check is +2....which is -ahem- pathetic.) Moreover, opponents at higher levels tend to be non-humanoid big monsters, and are more difficult to trip anyway.

Good luck!

 

[Nail]

Yep, I changed my char and took Weapon Focus- Spike Chain....

Maybe I wasn't clear:

A monk needs to spend a feat to become proficient with a Spiked Chain. You cannot take Weapon Focus with the Spiked Chain until you are proficient with it.

Moreover, a spiked chain is not a special monk weapon, so you can't use your Furry of Blows with it. So it's not the perfect Mnk weapon.