D&D 3E/3.5 Monk 3.5
- Thread starter Tclynch
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Nail said:
Fair enough, if we are talking strictly damage output I agree with you. Again, with Dodge and a higher Dex you effectively have +2 AC to compensate (and since you have a low probability of hitting, I suggest Fighting Defensively for an additional +3 AC). The difference in philosophy is I think a high-AC monk can meaningfully contribute to combat, despite having poor damage output whereas you do not.
The con can be switched, but again the +2 AC (and mobility isn't entirely usurped by tumbling is it? After all, you can still roll very low on a tumble).
Personally I would agree with him for your build the Weapon Focus would probably be more pertinent.
Put bluntly: The Str Mnk does over twice the damage of the Dex Mnk. Explain how that is not significant.
It is not significant if there is a fighter in the party. Assume 16 Str, +1 Weapon, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Spec - thats a +9 to hit with a +6 damage modifier (more if the weapon is 2-h). Not only will he hit more often, but he will do more damage. The significance of the monk's contribution is what is small - his roll is more of a harrier and less of a damage-dealer, in my experience (and if not a fighter, then a barbarian). Compared to a 4th level rogue with +2d6 sneak attack, 18 dex (halfling or elf) the numbers again come up in their favor (Since they only get sneak attack when they flank or get initiative).
The point is that a monk cannot supplant a fighter (or barbarian) in combat nor can he replace the rogue out of combat. So I tend to make dex-based monks (though I have played a Str-based half-orc monk before, as well as a wisdom based human monk and a nezumi Rog1/MnkX) to synergize with the rogue and tend to accept the low damage (though at higher levels you get niftier dice to roll). Put bluntly: I don't think the bonus damage from strength is significant enough to play strength-based monks (unless you have a number of high stats).
Your Dex Mnk has no "mental abilities", and only 1 "social ability": Sense Motive. Any other difference between the two Mnks in the "mental ability" department is completely role-play. And that's not "computer game" stuff, is it?
A character with an Intelligence of 12 gets roleplayed differently than one with 8 in games I have played in. Untrained Knowledge (Local) checks, Intelligence checks, and other things take this into account even if the rules don't explicitly. I'll admit there isn't much difference between a Charisma of 8 and 6, but I did say 'mental' abilities.
Not at all. But I would say: "If you want to play a half-orc, I hope you have high stats to play with!"
Darklone
Registered User
At first: I don't like monks without skills at all. Yet, I don't like chars who can't contribute to combat at all either. Sure, the monk will probably never have the staying power of the fighter (though that depends on his stats) but he should have enough staying power and damage output to supplement the fighter and to be perceived as a threat by the enemies. Otherwise these will simply ignore him and stomp the fighter into the ground.Technik4 said:
Not good for a harrier.
What I've found with the more AC oriented monk I've played is you need to get creative in combat. If you just stand up there and swing away your going to get bored, you really don't add much to combat. There are times when you could step back and let the fighter just go, you won't be missed. Also, AC doesn't mean much if the monsters ignore you.
But if you knock chandeliers on people's heads, throw broken chairs to trip them up, hurl tanglefoot bags, etc you can contribute without doing direct damage. And with your better AC, you can move around better without worrying about taking as much damage.
But as to the argument above, the 8.5 vs 4.5 damage is very significant, especially with an attack bonus difference. You WILL notice
The other option with a dex monk is to forget strength entirely and go for wisdom (aka the halfing monk) Pick up weapon finesse and use stunning fist. Stunning creatures gives you automatic disarms and lets the fighter and rogue pump out more damage. Its support work, but at least you are doing your part. Against undead and things immune to stun, your going to be hosed though so check with your dm on what kind of creatures you can expect.
But if you knock chandeliers on people's heads, throw broken chairs to trip them up, hurl tanglefoot bags, etc you can contribute without doing direct damage. And with your better AC, you can move around better without worrying about taking as much damage.
But as to the argument above, the 8.5 vs 4.5 damage is very significant, especially with an attack bonus difference. You WILL notice
The other option with a dex monk is to forget strength entirely and go for wisdom (aka the halfing monk) Pick up weapon finesse and use stunning fist. Stunning creatures gives you automatic disarms and lets the fighter and rogue pump out more damage. Its support work, but at least you are doing your part. Against undead and things immune to stun, your going to be hosed though so check with your dm on what kind of creatures you can expect.
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BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
EWP: Spiked Chain or skip it and use a longspear (or any reach weapon you like). Since your unarmed strikes can be kicks, headbutts, or anything else, you can use an unarmed strike at close range even when your hands are full with a reach weapon.
Combat Reflexes +High Dex
Potions of Enlarge Person, extending your reach to 20'.
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Go to town using your long reach to get lots of AOOs. Use them to trip and disarm your enemies when it is "their" turn. When it is YOUR turn, use your unarmed strikes (which should do better damage, and be more attacks per round). Note that adding power attack and cleave to this combo makes it deadlier, (killed that guy with an AOO? make your cleave attack on his friend) Oh, and since it is a 2-handed weapon that is a +2/1 damage ratio on power attack.
Now, you probably would not have the feats for this, but getting whirlwind attack would be friggin' awesome with the spiked chain (or any reach weapon).
Combat Reflexes +High Dex
Potions of Enlarge Person, extending your reach to 20'.
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Go to town using your long reach to get lots of AOOs. Use them to trip and disarm your enemies when it is "their" turn. When it is YOUR turn, use your unarmed strikes (which should do better damage, and be more attacks per round). Note that adding power attack and cleave to this combo makes it deadlier, (killed that guy with an AOO? make your cleave attack on his friend) Oh, and since it is a 2-handed weapon that is a +2/1 damage ratio on power attack.
Now, you probably would not have the feats for this, but getting whirlwind attack would be friggin' awesome with the spiked chain (or any reach weapon).
Strength is supreme
The single biggest "mistake" I see beginning players make when making a monk is not putting their two highest stats in Strength and Con. No matter how you slice it, a monk is a melee combatant and there is simply no substitution for doing more damage to something in a single hit, especially at higher levels when things routinely have DR.
There are plenty of ways to avoid getting hit (Blur/Displacement, Improved Invisibility, standing next to a wizard friend etc.) but damage is hard to come by, especially if you don't use a two handed weapon. An amulet of mighty fists is an especially bad idea, since the monk's attacks are treated as natural and manufactured weapons. That means you can get your hands (and feet, head, whatever) enchanted just like a weapon. Of course if you're just going for straight bonus (+5, say) its cheaper to get greater magic fang permanencied.
My buddy had a 21st level Monk/ Sacred Fist with minimum Cleric levels but with his emphasis on Wisdom. I think once he was fully buffed he did 6d6 + 40 damage per hit and had an astronomical AC.
The single biggest "mistake" I see beginning players make when making a monk is not putting their two highest stats in Strength and Con. No matter how you slice it, a monk is a melee combatant and there is simply no substitution for doing more damage to something in a single hit, especially at higher levels when things routinely have DR.
There are plenty of ways to avoid getting hit (Blur/Displacement, Improved Invisibility, standing next to a wizard friend etc.) but damage is hard to come by, especially if you don't use a two handed weapon. An amulet of mighty fists is an especially bad idea, since the monk's attacks are treated as natural and manufactured weapons. That means you can get your hands (and feet, head, whatever) enchanted just like a weapon. Of course if you're just going for straight bonus (+5, say) its cheaper to get greater magic fang permanencied.
My buddy had a 21st level Monk/ Sacred Fist with minimum Cleric levels but with his emphasis on Wisdom. I think once he was fully buffed he did 6d6 + 40 damage per hit and had an astronomical AC.
As I pointed out earlier, a Dex monk without Weapon finesse but using a polearm & ranged weapons can be quite deadly.
Working in tandem with a true front line warrior, he can soften opponents up quite nicely with his AoOs, making them perfect fodder for the guy with the Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave feat tree.
If its a tripping polearm, not only is he getting the AoO on the prone target, but so does anyone else who is close enough.
As for how much teamwork it requires, the answer is not really that much. All the monk has to do is shadow at least one tank buddy- there isn't any warrior on the field who can outrun him. If the tanks form a cohesive line to fight, all he has to do is poke, poke, poke from behind it. If the Barbarian charges, he can follow along and fight from the furry guy's flank.
And, of course, the ability to fight like this improves greatly with some non-Core products. For instance, DCv1 includes the Feat Pole Fighter, which allows the use of a (single selected) polearm as a monk weapon, and certain sourcebooks include races with very large Dex adjustments (Githzerai, Anthropomorphic Apes, etc.).
Working in tandem with a true front line warrior, he can soften opponents up quite nicely with his AoOs, making them perfect fodder for the guy with the Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave feat tree.
If its a tripping polearm, not only is he getting the AoO on the prone target, but so does anyone else who is close enough.
As for how much teamwork it requires, the answer is not really that much. All the monk has to do is shadow at least one tank buddy- there isn't any warrior on the field who can outrun him. If the tanks form a cohesive line to fight, all he has to do is poke, poke, poke from behind it. If the Barbarian charges, he can follow along and fight from the furry guy's flank.
And, of course, the ability to fight like this improves greatly with some non-Core products. For instance, DCv1 includes the Feat Pole Fighter, which allows the use of a (single selected) polearm as a monk weapon, and certain sourcebooks include races with very large Dex adjustments (Githzerai, Anthropomorphic Apes, etc.).
Most importantly, go Barbarian at 9th.
Well, any level is a good level to go barbarian, but 9th was when I did it and it worked pretty well for me. You get the +10' ground speed right away plus Rage, and Uncanny Dodge at the next level. (I went the Spring Attack route for reasons known only to me, and a 80' move, Raging, 24 STR Spring Attacker can cover a lot of battlemat. There are better builds out there, but I liked that one.)
You have to stay in Barbarian from then on out or you face multiclassing penalties, you can't go back to Monk (obviously) and you are no longer lawful, but if you can wrap your mind around that its not a bad way to go. (My character started out as a LN half-orc monk who eventually succumbed to the rage of his half-human heart, turned non-lawful and went barbarian. Even though I had preplanned it mechanically, it was still a fun roleplaying element to the character.)
If I had it to do over I would take some of the Extend/Extra Rage feats, and maybe a level of Horizon Walker to become non-fatiguable. As it was, I tended to rage only in the Big Combat, or the Last Combat of the Day. (I should also note that it was an extemely magic item limited game, which made having a lot of class abilities all the more sweet.)
Well, any level is a good level to go barbarian, but 9th was when I did it and it worked pretty well for me. You get the +10' ground speed right away plus Rage, and Uncanny Dodge at the next level. (I went the Spring Attack route for reasons known only to me, and a 80' move, Raging, 24 STR Spring Attacker can cover a lot of battlemat. There are better builds out there, but I liked that one.)
You have to stay in Barbarian from then on out or you face multiclassing penalties, you can't go back to Monk (obviously) and you are no longer lawful, but if you can wrap your mind around that its not a bad way to go. (My character started out as a LN half-orc monk who eventually succumbed to the rage of his half-human heart, turned non-lawful and went barbarian. Even though I had preplanned it mechanically, it was still a fun roleplaying element to the character.)
If I had it to do over I would take some of the Extend/Extra Rage feats, and maybe a level of Horizon Walker to become non-fatiguable. As it was, I tended to rage only in the Big Combat, or the Last Combat of the Day. (I should also note that it was an extemely magic item limited game, which made having a lot of class abilities all the more sweet.)
