Monk and Stoneskin

[hong]

Don't forget that antimagic field is a range: personal spell. That effectively means your 15th level mage has to get into melee with the dragon if he's going to get it into the AMF.

 

[Numion]

I had the impression that a Dragon had the advantage in an antimagic cone / zone. If it's a big dragon the fighters have hard time hitting it without their magic wares. the dragons AC isn't magical, and neither are it's attacks. ouch.

 

[Metalsmith]

Doc Moriartty

You missed my point. I I was giving an example of why I thought DR should not go away in anti-magic. Basically because once a creature loses its DR it can quickly be taken down by mass attacks by waves of the weakest foes. Give those foes missle weapons and the slaughter of the creature is even quicker.

So then my original assumption was correct, you are being silly. So now that I'm shure you think a Balor keeping his DR while in an Anti-Magic Field is a good thing, could you please explain how you can kill one of those? Without Destroying the enviroment the Balor is occupying (dropping a house on him) or using slimes and oozes ect or a Forsaker.

I may even give you a cookie if you can name 3.

Metalsmith

 

[Hammerhead]

Why should it be in the best interest of the highly magical creatures with DR to stay in antimagic areas?

They should have problems in AMF.

 

[Elric]

Karinsdad- actually, tons of magical arrows are easy to get with the Chain Spell feat and Greater Magic Weapon. The number of targets becomes 1/level (or maybe 1+ 1/level), allowing a 12th level caster to outfit an entire army with magical arrows a half a day in advance. 300 archers with Rapid Shot and 2 +4 arrows each could take down a Balor with their 280 damage on the first round of combat.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad- actually, tons of magical arrows are easy to get with the Chain Spell feat and Greater Magic Weapon. The number of targets becomes 1/level (or maybe 1+ 1/level), allowing a 12th level caster to outfit an entire army with magical arrows a half a day in advance. 300 archers with Rapid Shot and 2 +4 arrows each could take down a Balor with their 280 damage on the first round of combat.

And you do not find this example just a little contrived? 300 archers with the same feats and minimum dexes of 13 plus a Cleric with a non-core rule feat.

In any case, why is a CR 13 monster and 300 archers a problem, but a CR 12 Cleric and 300 archers not a problem?

Or are you claiming that both examples are a problem?

Plus, in order for this plan to work, about half of the archers have to beat the Balor's initiative which should be tough with a creature that constantly Sees Invisible at 300 feet, has a Spot +29 (i.e. an army should never surprise it without special magic), and has +5 initiative. With an Intelligence of 20, a Balor that wins initiative should either delay facing an army (and definitely cast a spell like Teleport or Deeper Darkness if he starts getting hit), or it should cast Fire Storm and wipe out most of the offending army right away. Unless of course you contrive it that the archers have the Balor surrounded right off the bat or something.

Personally, I think these types of contrived examples are mostly meta-gaming. For example, the Chain Spell feat is broken IMO anyway. For example, having a 9th level Cleric cast Chain Spell Endurance on an entire party of 10 characters with one 5th level spell as opposed to using 10 of his 10+ 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells sounds pretty broken to me. Ditto for an 11th or higher level Cleric and GMW. YMMV.

 

[Caliban]

For example, the Chain Spell feat is broken IMO anyway. For example, having a 9th level Cleric cast Chain Spell Endurance on an entire party of 10 characters with one 5th level spell as opposed to using 10 of his 10+ 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells sounds pretty broken to me.

If you could do that, it would be broken. Too bad you can't do that with Chain spell, since Endurance has a range of Touch.

Ditto for an 11th or higher level Cleric and GMW. YMMV.

Being able to affect up to 12 weapons with greater magic weapon is pretty potent, but it does take a 6th level spell.

But, you would not be able to use the Chain spell feat to affect hundreds of arrows with greater magic weapon. The spell has to specify a single target, and 50 projectiles is not a single target.

Chain spell is potent within a narrow range, but not nearly as broken as it seems, once you take into account the limitations.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you could do that, it would be broken. Too bad you can't do that with Chain spell, since Endurance has a range of Touch.

Good point. I really wasn’t that familiar with the feat and hadn’t read it carefully.

Chain spell is potent within a narrow range, but not nearly as broken as it seems, once you take into account the limitations.

Oh, like 4 magic missiles on the first target and 2 magic missiles on 7 more targets for a total of 18 magic missiles and an average of 63 points of damage (unless the feat supercedes the saving throw none of Magic Missile where the average damage is between 38 and 63)? Sounds fairly potent for a 7th level caster and a 4th level spell.

Compared to Maximized Magic Missile, also at 4th level, which does 20 points of damage?

Or, gaining an extra hasted target with Chained Haste compared with Mass Haste?

Or creating 17 Undead with Chained Create Undead in one hour with one 9th level spell as opposed to a mere 10 Undead with 10 Create Undead spells in ten hours with most or all of the 17th level caster’s 6, 7, 8, and 9th level spells?

Still sounds broken to me. But, YMMV.

 

[Caliban]

Oh, like 4 magic missiles on the first target and 2 magic missiles on 7 more targets for a total of 18 magic missiles and an average of 63 points of damage (unless the feat supercedes the saving throw none of Magic Missile where the average damage is between 38 and 63)? Sounds fairly potent for a 7th level caster and a 4th level spell.


Compared to Maximized Magic Missile, also at 4th level, which does 20 points of damage?

You really do need to read the feat. Chain Spell only works on spells that specify a single target and that have a range greater than touch.

You can't use Chain Spell on magic missile, since the magic missile doesn't specify a single target.

Or, gaining an extra hasted target with Chained Haste compared with Mass Haste?

Oh my god! One extra haste!! It's Broken!!!



At 11th level you can haste 11 targets with Mass Haste or 12 targets with Chained haste. How often do you need to haste more than 6 or 7 targets anyway? Usually it's just your group and any animal companions or summoned creatures.

Or creating 17 Undead with Chained Create Undead in one hour with one 9th level spell as opposed to a mere 10 Undead with 10 Create Undead spells in ten hours with most or all of the 17th level caster’s 6, 7, 8, and 9th level spells?

Seems appropriate for a 9th level spell slot. I could easily see a 9th level spell that does the equivalent.

Create Undead can only be used by bad guys anyway. Sounds like a good explanation for an army of undead for the characters to fight.

Still sounds broken to me. But, YMMV.

Still sounds like you still haven't actually read the feat to me. *shrug*

 

[KarinsDad]

You really do need to read the feat. Chain Spell only works on spells that specify a single target and that have a range greater than touch.

Magic Missile can be used on a single target. I do not recall the wording of the feat being that you could not use it on a spell that allows single or multiple targets as long as you use it on a single target.

"the character can have them strike a single creature or several creatures"

If they strike a single creature, then it is a single target.

At 11th level you can haste 11 targets with Mass Haste or 12 targets with Chained haste. How often do you need to haste more than 6 or 7 targets anyway? Usually it's just your group and any animal companions or summoned creatures.

Two issues here:

1) You do get an extra Haste. Granted this is minor, but the feat gives you more than a spell specifically intended to do this. Hmmmm.

2) You do not have to learn Mass Haste and can learn a different 6th level spell in it's place (or save the 1200 GP). Learning Haste (which most casters who would want Mass Haste would do anyway) is sufficient. Again, not a big deal, but when combined with the other spell combinations and amount of spell power this feat gives you, it adds up.

Seems appropriate for a 9th level spell slot. I could easily see a 9th level spell that does the equivalent.

Create Undead can only be used by bad guys anyway. Sounds like a good explanation for an army of undead for the characters to fight.

I just think that a feat to use a single 9th level spell slot to give you the same result as using 6 6th, 4 7th, 3 8th, AND 3 9th level spells, but casting it in one hour instead of seventeen hours is somewhat broken. There is a reason they gave Create Undead a one hour casting time.

And, I'm sure there are even better examples.


It's merely a matter of simple mathematics.

Certain spells can have their number of targets multiplied by a factor of (Caster Level + 1).

For spells that are not really caster level dependent (e.g. Create Undead), it is really unbalanced to have one spell 3 levels higher take the place of x spells of the appropriate level, y spells of level plus one, z spells of level plus two, and often one or more spells of level plus three. Fairly simple math. Plus, the casting time for replacing these types of spell is divided by Caster Level + 1 since you cast one spell instead of X spells.

Still sounds like you still haven't actually read the feat to me. *shrug*

Sigh. Yes, I have.

It just sounds uber to me. I dislike uber.