Monk: Grapple, Flurry and reach weapons

[Ulrik]

Can Flurry of Blows be combined with grapple attempts? The text for grappling says that you can use a melee attack to start a grapple, so I'd *think* that it's allowed. It does not state what kind of action it is, unlike disarm (which states "as a melee attack you may..."), so I'm not sure. Is it disallowed because flurry only works with certain weapons, and although it works with unarmed strikes, does or does that not include grapple attempts?

If it can be combined, how does it work? Is the flurry penalty applied to grapple checks, the touch attack to start the grapple, or both?

Finally, are there any feats other than Serpent Strike (from the ECS) that allows a reach weapon to be used with flurry? (Campaign specific books are unfortunatly disallowed in this campaign, although other books are allowed with some exceptions).

 

[Legildur]

I'm going to leave the 'grapple with flurry' question alone as it is usually contentious.

But, for flurrying with a reach weapon, the Dragon Compendium vol I has a feat called Pole Fighter, which allows you to flurry with the selection polearm.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is a split of opinion as to whether a grapple can be initiated with a FoB (for the record, I'm among those who say you can). My best advice is ask your DM for a ruling.

As for FoB/Reach weapons questions, your best (setting neutral) bet is Paizo's Dragon Compendium v. 1- after all, Dragon content is labeled "100% official." There is a feat called Unorthodox Flurry that lets you use a light weapon of your choice as a Monk Weapon (incl. FoB), another called Ring the Golden Bell that lets you use Unarmed Strike at range, and most importantly, one called Pole Fighter that lets you use a particular polearm as a Monk Weapon (incl. FoB).

There are also about 9 or so other pole weapon feats, as well as a bunch of new weapons, including some more polearms.

 

[Ulrik]

There is a split of opinion as to whether a grapple can be initiated with a FoB (for the record, I'm among those who say you can). My best advice is ask your DM for a ruling.

I found a thread on it with google search just now (and why didn't I do it before I posted this, you may ask? ), so I can see the arguments. Personally I lean towards that it can be combined (but then, I play the monk in question ), and I think my DM will agree with the FAQ. I'll ask next session.

But, how does the penalty apply? I think that since it appears that FoB modifies your BAB (although it doesn't say that directly), it affects both grapple checks and the initial attack roll.

And thanks both of you for the Dragon Compendium tip!

 

[RigaMortus2]

I would like to see an arguement why you wouldn't be able to combine Flurry with (the initial) grapple attempt. Once you are in a grapple, I am not sure if you can Flurry or not (I'd have to see the wording and I am too lazy right now). But I don't see why the initial attempt to grapple can't be combined with Flurry.

 

[Ulrik]

I would like to see an arguement why you wouldn't be able to combine Flurry with (the initial) grapple attempt. Once you are in a grapple, I am not sure if you can Flurry or not (I'd have to see the wording and I am too lazy right now). But I don't see why the initial attempt to grapple can't be combined with Flurry.

After reading an earlier thread, I believe the gist of it is that a monkey is allowed to flurry with an unarmed strike, while a grapple requires an unarmed attack. I disagree that there's a distinction, but I can see where they're coming from.

Back to the second part of my question, my DM has decided to disallow the Dragon Compendium. Is there any other places, besides the ECS, that allows monks to flurry with reach weapons? Or am I out of luck...oh well.

 

[RigaMortus2]

After reading an earlier thread, I believe the gist of it is that a monkey is allowed to flurry with an unarmed strike, while a grapple requires an unarmed attack. I disagree that there's a distinction, but I can see where they're coming from.

Well, there actually IS a distinction between the two. An unarmed strike IS an unarmed attack, but an unarmed attack isn't necessarily an unarmed strike. So anything you can do w/ an unarmed attack can be done w/ an unarmed strike.

And if I am not correct about this, I am sure HS or someone else will clarify it for me

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, there actually IS a distinction between the two. An unarmed strike IS an unarmed attack, but an unarmed attack isn't necessarily an unarmed strike. So anything you can do w/ an unarmed attack can be done w/ an unarmed strike.

Not quite.

You can grapple, using an unarmed attack. You cannot grapple, using an unarmed strike.

Unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks. Grapples are a subset of unarmed attacks. Unarmed strikes and grapples do not overlap.

 

[Artoomis]

Not quite.

You can grapple, using an unarmed attack. You cannot grapple, using an unarmed strike.

Unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks. Grapples are a subset of unarmed attacks. Unarmed strikes and grapples do not overlap.

Or maybe they do. This is not clear from the rules.

Also not clear is whether Unarmed Attacks are really different from Unarmed Strikes. It seems that sometimes there is a distiction and sometimes there is not.

This is an area for improvement for Fourth Edition (or will it be 3.75?).