Monk Grappling & Flurry of Blows

[Darklone]

Greatcleaving after Whirlwind trip bag of snails and blind kobold tricks.

 

[Brekki]

".. any bonus ..."

That also includes things like weapon focus and specialization ... whirlwind has really been toned down.

 

[DrSpunj]

".. any bonus ..."

That also includes things like weapon focus and specialization ... whirlwind has really been toned down.

YMMV, of course, but I take the phrase that Legildur quoted a bit differently.

"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

I think means:

"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus attacks or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

to get around the fact that some feats grant extra attacks and some feats grant bonus attacks. Whirlwind doesn't allow either type to activate. However, other types of feat bonuses (like WF, WS, etc.) I think work just fine, just not bonus attacks.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[jessemock]

I would say that a monk who is grappling could flurry to attack multiple times, but it would be the kind of attack that requires an attack roll at -4 (penalty to attack while grappling), NOT to make multiple opposed grapple checks to deal unarmed damage.

You mean that a Monk with, say, 4 attacks w/FoB couldn't 1) make the touch attack to start a grapple, resolve, and damage, then 2-4) make any grapple maneuvers equal to a melee attack?

Why not?

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, other types of feat bonuses (like WF, WS, etc.) I think work just fine, just not bonus attacks.

That's right.

-Hyp.

 

[T-Bone]

You mean that a Monk with, say, 4 attacks w/FoB couldn't 1) make the touch attack to start a grapple, resolve, and damage, then 2-4) make any grapple maneuvers equal to a melee attack?

Why not?

Well, no. He couldn't. (IMO). I would rule that all the attacks from "Flurry of Blows" must be attacks that require attack rolls, not attack actions that require opposed checks such as grappling.

The written rules may be against me here if I track down that ""Flurry of Blows" attacks are either "unarmed attacks" or "melee attacks with a monk weapon", and that an "unarmed attack" can be used to start a grapple.

Someone help me out here. I like to stay within the rules as much as possible, but if a monk can flurry grapplke checks legally, I'm going to have to house rule that out.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The written rules may be against me here if I track down that ""Flurry of Blows" attacks are either "unarmed attacks" or "melee attacks with a monk weapon", and that an "unarmed attack" can be used to start a grapple.

Well, Grapple has a footnote on the Table of Action types, along with Trip and Disarm, as follows: "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

Basically, any time you can make a melee attack, you can grapple instead.

Flurry of Blows notes: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons."

... huh. You know, I'm going to change my position on this one.

"Unarmed Strike" is distinct from "Grapple", as evidenced by the fact that there's a different Weapon Focus applicable to each.

Anything that grants "an extra attack" can be used to Grapple... but since Grapple is neither an "unarmed strike" nor "a special monk weapon", a Grapple check cannot be part of a Flurry of Blows.

A monk who is already Grappling could use Flurry of Blows to attack with an unarmed strike or light monk weapon repeatedly... but he couldn't mix in any of the other grappling actions, just as he couldn't mix in an attack with a dagger.

Trips or Disarms made with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons would still be a valid part of a Flurry of Blows, since they use the Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (or whatever). But Grapple doesn't, and as such is not eligible for use in a Flurry.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Hmm.. I disagree there.

Flurry of Blows gives you an extra attack. You can make a grapple check in place of an attack. Therefore you can use the extra attack from flurry of blows to make a grapple check.

None of your normal unarmed strike bonuses or feats would apply, since an unarmed strike is different from a grapple.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Flurry of Blows gives you an extra attack. You can make a grapple check in place of an attack. Therefore you can use the extra attack from flurry of blows to make a grapple check.

None of your normal unarmed strike bonuses or feats would apply, since an unarmed strike is different from a grapple.

That's exactly my point - an unarmed strike is different from a grapple.

If I drop an opponent with my longsword, I get an immediate free attack with my Cleave feat. I can't use that free attack to grapple, though, even though I can normally make a grapple check in place of an attack, because Cleave specifies that my free attack must be with the same weapon. Right?

Flurry of Blows specifies that I can only use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. We've established that an unarmed strike is different from a grapple, and grappling isn't on the list of special monk weapons, either.

So just as I can't use my dagger as part of a Flurry, I can't grapple as part of a Flurry either - the Flurry rules don't allow it. Just like the Cleave rules don't let me switch from longsword to grapple.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

That's exactly my point - an unarmed strike is different from a grapple.

If I drop an opponent with my longsword, I get an immediate free attack with my Cleave feat. I can't use that free attack to grapple, though, even though I can normally make a grapple check in place of an attack, because Cleave specifies that my free attack must be with the same weapon. Right?

Flurry of Blows specifies that I can only use unarmed strikes or special monk weapons. We've established that an unarmed strike is different from a grapple, and grappling isn't on the list of special monk weapons, either.

So just as I can't use my dagger as part of a Flurry, I can't grapple as part of a Flurry either - the Flurry rules don't allow it. Just like the Cleave rules don't let me switch from longsword to grapple.

-Hyp.

Hmm.. looks like your right. Damn, I was playing my monk grappler wrong them.