Monk Revisions

[IceBear]

evilbob,

It's just that there are many, many cases of stuff looking better on paper than they are - the monk is one of them. You, yourself, have admitted that you haven't played on. Nearly everyone that has posted that HAS played a monk has stated that they didn't feel overpowered, but rather underpowered.

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

So use a kama, nunchaku, or siangham and maintain the favorable bonuses. A GMW on that will go a long way.

If there's a druid in the party, Greater Magic Fang is great. My monk buys the party druid breakfast every day.

I know that! Geesh - so nitpicky I was addressing bob's comment about using a handaxe specifically.

In my case, I have purposely house ruled that GMW doesn't work for Sundering or for overcoming DR just to prevent someone from doing this (mainly archers), but, yes, by the rules, GMW would help the druid if he has monk weapons equipped.

IceBear

 

[dravot]

Heh.

Just making sure

I play a monk in our beta game (for times when the DM doesn't have time/energy to prep for our regular game), and for a class that's supposed to be melee, I do find it somewhat frustrating at times.

Our last fight though, I had no problems hitting at all (a combination of GMFang, flanking and some good rolls).

 

[evilbob]

Most of those monk abilities are "tric" abilities.

The argument for a powerful defense without much offense is the best so far. Then again, it's hard for me to see past the average level Monk having a natural 1d12 +2 weapon with as many attacks as a Fighter.

There should not be an unwritten rule saying don't bother playing a monk unless you have a druid in your party.

This is interesting; what do you mean? (Again, lack of experience with a Monk here.)

Also, in regards to DR: it seems that the new 3.5e rules may make further discussion on this irrelevant, since they'll be changing lots of stuff around... But for the moment, I still say this isn't much of a hindrance to a very powerful class.

And as far as the nit-picking of previous statements... I still say all of those Monk abilities help keep the character alive better than other characters. Can't die from poison, can't die from disease, harder to die from falling, can speak to any creature in the universe, can become ethereal, etc, etc. This just adds more to the list of things that won't accidentally screw up your character.

Once a week...

One a week, schmonce a week... The Monk still gets a "I Kill You for Free" card that cannot be stopped except by unusual means. : ) Maybe they should rename that ability...

Which is useless because you can't see for miles...

Yeah, but when you have an ability that allows you to *do* something like that, it's gotta be broken. Also, if you Jump for a mile and can't see where you'll land - just Abundant Step to the nearest convient location when you get there!

Offensive abilities are important, but I still think the Monk's other abilities more than make up for any shortcoming.

Oh, and Icebear, I appreciate everyone's comments - what I'm looking for is -why- they feel the Monk is not actually overpowered, so I can understand how the paper differs from the game. I've been sorta jovially tossing aside arguments left and right, but I -am- paying attention here, and some excellent points have been raised.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Let's see... problems with the Monk:

> Low attack bonus means a lot of missing.
> Can't penetrate DR well with primary ability.
> Can't do much against any monster immune to bludgeoning or that regenerates.
> Can't gain Reach.
> Can't really use all those neat armor and weapon special enchantments.
Requires four stats to be useful.
> Enhancement bonuses add to attack bonus, damage rolls, sundering, and bypassing DR. Ki Strike only bypasses DR. So, those people using magical weapons instead of fists have an even higher attack bonus, and can do just as much damage.

Level 20 Fighter with a +5 greatsword: +25(+STR) to hit, 12+(1.5*STR) damage, plus another two for Weapon Specialization, and a 19-20 crit range.
Level 20 Monk fists: +15(+STR) to hit, 10.5(+STR) damage. 20 crit range.

Now, some people say "carry a Kama/Nunchuk/Siangham". It's just not worth it most of the time. If you get to the point where you use those, you're suddenly inferior to every other melee class (except the Bard!).

> Gets a bunch of near-useless abilities. Not aging? Meh.
> No flexibility in class abilities; every Monk 15 is the same, fundamentally, as every other Monk 15.
> Thanks to the multiclassing limitation it's hard for them to join PrCs.
> Their speed is nice, but after a certain point (50', IMO) it just stops being a big deal. With the ranges most fights are at, you reach a point where you point at the map, say "I move there", and you're done.

IMC we already rebuilt the Monk class. It really needed it, and the version we came up with is something people actually are willing to play again.

 

[IceBear]

As above

Seriously, the monk player in my campaign thought he was going to rock in combat. He didn't and he was very disappointed. Sure, he could run faster and get into combat before everyone else. That wasn't a good thing

Using magical monk weapons to overcome DR is fine if he wants to keep his attack rate, but there's a reason that they all do 1d6 points of damage His 1d12 attacks suddenly become 1d6.

Finally, how often does a PC die from disease?

IceBear

 

[dravot]

About monks and druids:

This is interesting; what do you mean? (Again, lack of experience with a Monk here.)

Druid Greater Magic Fang spell is a must for monks, since it applies to natural weapons (like fists and stuff).

A monk in a non-druid party is seriously gimped, and the cost of an amulet of GMFang (from Sword and Fist) is seriously whacked (bonus^2 * 6000gp).

 

[evilbob]

Fighter's Greatsword: 2d6 +5
Monk's hand: 1d20 +4

Hmmm...

Again, I still don't think the other abilities are "useless." (Well, except the aging one. You're right. That one IS useless.)

PrCs that make Monks better are already broken, in my opinion...

I will grant one thing though - no flexability. Sure, you've got your feats, but I will admit that Monks are by far the most streamlined and cookie-cutter class there is. This doesn't affect their power, but it does make them less interesting to play (at least, more than once).

 

[evilbob]

dravot: Thanks! That makes perfect sense when you spell it out for me like I was a small child or something... Sometimes that's what it takes. : )

Finally, how often does a PC die from disease?

Well, if he's a Monk - never!

; )

 

[IceBear]

evilbob, I guess I'm a little cranky today, but since you're not taking the word of people that have PLAYED the monk (there's a point where it stops being devil's advocate and just becomes argumentative) and just dismissing their experiences, I'm starting to not see the point of this.

That 1d20+4 doesn't help much when the DR is 50/+5 (which is possible at 20th level). Also, remember the monk has to survive to 20th level, and he had to do it back when he only have +1 for overcoming DR and the monsters were much higher than that. It's easy to look at a class at a specific level and say how powerful he is (look at a 20th level wizard). Now think about how tough the journey was.

And with the disease thing, you said how powerful it was for a monk not to DIE from disease. My point was, I've never seen a PC die from a disease. Yeah, it's nice to be IMMUNE to diseases.

IceBear