monks and natural attacks...again :(

[Cephid]

Ok, i know this has been covered, but what happens with monks and natural attacks from a polymorphed form?
If it is into a troll for example, how many attacks does a level 11 monk get and can they rend for extra damage?

Cheers.

 

[Legildur]

Welcome to the boards.

First thing is to realise that a monk uses an 'unarmed strike' to attack, while trolls use 'natural weapons', so polymorphed monks face a dilemma as to whether to use their class ability or the natural attack routine of their new form.

In this case, an 11th level monk could either Flurry of Blows with an unarmed strike (2d8 damage per attack for being size Large when polymorphed) for 4 attacks, or could use the claw/claw/bite/rend routine of the troll (with damage as per the MM, adjusted for the monk's strength bonus).

I'm unsure whether a monk could use claw attacks in each of its normal iterative attacks (at the +8/+3 BAB), but that would be suboptimal (in terms of total attack bonus and number of attacks) anyway compared to the full-attack routine available to a troll.

But I will caveat this by saying that I'm no expert in this area.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I'm unsure whether a monk could use claw attacks in each of its normal iterative attacks (at the +8/+3 BAB), but that would be suboptimal (in terms of total attack bonus and number of attacks) anyway compared to the full-attack routine available to a troll.

He could not. You cannot use iterative attacks with natural weapons.

For an example on natural weapons + monk, see the Lizard Folk Monk 11 example by Patryn.

 

[Animal]

it's stated in PHB that monk's unarmed attack counts as natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects affecting it. so will the spells that enhance natural weapon enhance monk's unarmed attack as well?

 

[Legildur]

it's stated in PHB that monk's unarmed attack counts as natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects affecting it. so will the spells that enhance natural weapon enhance monk's unarmed attack as well?

Yes. Specifically Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang all affect a monk's unarmed strike. There are probably other things as well, but those are the ones that I remember off the top of my head.

 

[Iku Rex]

Ok, i know this has been covered, but what happens with monks and natural attacks from a polymorphed form?
If it is into a troll for example, how many attacks does a level 11 monk get and can they rend for extra damage?

According to the RAW and the official FAQ you can combine your regular iterative attacks (or a flurry of blows) with secondary natural attacks. (Though you can't make regular iterative attacks or flurry with natural weapons.) So the monk could make four attacks from a flurry of blows (as normal) and then make three more secondary natural attacks (claw, claw, bite). The rend ability is triggered if both claws hit.

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s an 8th-level monk.
Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0
unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2
hooves?
If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5
penalty for secondary natural attacks.
An 8th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +10
(+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +6 from his
8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes
three unarmed strikes, at +8/+8/+3. He can add two hoof
attacks at +1/+1 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the
flurry).

 

[Cephid]

Thanks for your help.
I am still a little confused.

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine...

It seems to me that the example of the centaur is different to the troll.
A centaur can NORMALLY make both weapon attacks and netural attacks.
The troll would have its hands (claws) occupied by weapons, and so could not NORMALLY make natural and weapon attacks. (except with its bite.)

Also, these two posts seem to contradict each other:

According to the RAW and the official FAQ you can combine your regular iterative attacks (or a flurry of blows) with secondary natural attacks.

In this case, an 11th level monk could either Flurry of Blows with an unarmed strike (2d8 damage per attack for being size Large when polymorphed) for 4 attacks, or could use the claw/claw/bite/rend routine of the troll (with damage as per the MM, adjusted for the monk's strength bonus).

After reading the lizard man link I am even MORE confused.
It first says that during a full attack you can use monk attacks and natural attacks but not flurry.
Then it says FAQ says otherwise?! ...but the writer thinks that it is "hogwash".

The FAQ, however, says that that rule doesn't mean what it says, and allows monks with natural attack forms to use them so long as they use them "separately" from their flurry attacks.

So where to from here? Is there some kind of agreement 'by the rules' or the rules so blurry here that every has there own idea?
If there is no consences, what do the DM's out there think in terms of fairness? Which is the best option to keep the monk (with a polymorph casting friend) happy and ballanced?

Again, thanks for your help everyone.

 

[glass]

Thanks for your help. I am still a little confused.

Don't worry, it is a little confusing.

It first says that during a full attack you can use monk attacks and natural attacks but not flurry. Then it says FAQ says otherwise?! ...but the writer thinks that it is "hogwash".

The FAQ says that you can use natural weapons with a flurry. However, in Patryn's opinion (and mine), this is not what the PHB says. If the FAQ contradicts the PHB, then the FAQ is wrong (or a Patryn so eloquantly puts it, 'hogwash').

So where to from here? Is there some kind of agreement 'by the rules' or the rules so blurry here that every has there own idea? If there is no consences, what do the DM's out there think in terms of fairness? Which is the best option to keep the monk (with a polymorph casting friend) happy and ballanced?

I don't know if there is really a consensus. Probably not; it's more of a two camps situation, really.

In terms of balance, I think that the 'no natural weapons in a flurry' is probably better. I don't see why a high level lizard man monk (say) should have so many more attacks than a human one. Disallowing natural weapons in a flurry doesn't elliminate this problem, but it does help.

Personally, I'd prefer to see the 'mixing natural and manufactured weapons' rule go away entirely come 2014 when the next edition rolls around!


glass.

 

[Cephid]

In terms of balance, I think that the 'no natural weapons in a flurry' is probably better.

That does seem the logical answer to me too.

Thankyou.

 

[rowport]

In terms of balance, I think that the 'no natural weapons in a flurry' is probably better. I don't see why a high level lizard man monk (say) should have so many more attacks than a human one. Disallowing natural weapons in a flurry doesn't elliminate this problem, but it does help.

I think that glass sums up the two camps' positions pretty well here. In the interest of full disclosure, let me add the factors on the other side that I have heard offered in other threads:
1. Whether one chooses to ignore the FAQ or not, it really does speak clearly on this issue, and says that you *can* combine natural attacks as secondary attacks after the flurry of blows. The problem with just handwaving away the FAQ is that for consistency, you should also reject the hundreds of other rulings in there. *shrug*

2. From a balance perspective, applying the appropriate penalties to all the attacks may mititate the impact of the addititional attacks. Without the Multiattack feat, secondary attacks are already -5, or -7 including the flurry penalty to all attacks within a round. So, the natural weapon Monk will miss a lot.

Just FYI.