Monk's Belt help

[Vlos]

Well, have to say this is the longest thread on this subject in some time. More detailed than the others too!

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67949&highlight=monks+belt

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64672&highlight=monks+belt

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59062


We have house ruled that it does not grant the WIS bonus, which I personally hate because at our EPIC levels I have a +12 WIS bonus.

I am also surprised the number of times this comes up that there is not a FAQ section on it yet over at WotC.

 

[Deset Gled]

So if it's not a problem in play, what kind of problem is it?

It's a design problem.

In D+D, there are a lot of bonuses and special abilities that players can get. And there are all sorts of ways that players can get them. But I believe that there are certain lines that should not be crossed in terms of what can grant what. This is an example of an item granting something that should be obtainable only through gaining levels in a class.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Looking over the mathy posts above, it seems as though the belt is either worse than regular armour builds (aside from the touch AC issue), or better under certain circumstances. I'm not seeing anything particularly game-breaking here. It's better for some character builds than for others, which is fine and to be expected, although I do agree with Crothian that items in general should provide clearly-defined bonuses.

In this case, we seem to have a poorly-designed item that sends up warning flags on first glance but turns out to be not really all that bad. Sure, there are builds that can exploit the item, but there are also probably more optimized and exploitative builds that don't use it. Nail spells it out pretty well. To save a few thousand GP, he can trade in his mithril for a monk's belt, and try to make up the diffrence with Wisdom and assorted magic enhancements. It doesn't quite work. Of course, he starts with a pretty huge Wisdom bonus to begin working from, which is probably unachievable for most mid-high level characters, and would prevent further Wisdom increase depending on what bonus types are involved.

So there's a big grey area between balanced and broken that this item seems to fall into. That's actually not so bad, considering it doesn't give a fixed bonus, per the RAW. I'd let it run in my campaign as written, although I wouldn't bet that my players couldn't break it. They're pretty resourceful.

 

[Prism]

A few people in their examples have mentioned merging items and wild armour movement penalties.

The wilding clasp hasn't been upgraded to 3.5 as due to the item resizing rules pretty much anything that can be realistically worn on a limb or torso can be kept functional in wild shape. This obviously includes the monks belt - silly though it may look

IMO Wild armour merges with the form as it cannot be seen in wild form and only the armour bonus is retained - the other penalties (movement) and benefits (additional armour powers) are lost. As a comparison, beastskin armour in Complete Adventurer specifically doesn't merge and keeps all the movement penalties

If special materials are allowed in the campaign then dark leaf full plate is medium armour and non metallic and is generally a better option than the monks belt unless the WIS bonus of the druid is exceptionally high

 

[KarinsDad]

It's a design problem.

In D+D, there are a lot of bonuses and special abilities that players can get. And there are all sorts of ways that players can get them. But I believe that there are certain lines that should not be crossed in terms of what can grant what. This is an example of an item granting something that should be obtainable only through gaining levels in a class.

Except that you gain nearly the same abilities (+wis bonus instead of +wis bonus +1) with a single level of Monk.

It is only a design problem if it is abused. Otherwise, it is just another way to accomplish something and as has been shown, often something less potent overall.

If the players are having fun and the Druid is not walking around with AC 50, what does it matter?

A few extra points of AC in some bizarre carefully crafted builds? Who cares? If the player spent a boatload of money on AC building this way, hit him with a Fireball.

It is interesting, however, that once the math illustrates that something is not broken mechanically, then people try to say that something is broken design-wise. It's only broken design-wise if people playing the game are not having fun when using it. Otherwise, it's just a different way to play the game and that does not matter. Having fun is what matters. A few points of AC here or there is white noise.

 

[robberbaron]

I was all set to say that after reading the rules I would reverse my opinion and go for +1 +WIS Bonus but, upon further thought (and reading the arguments posted) I will stand by +1.
The item isn't exactly broken, but is very poorly described.
It is either very cheap or a bit expensive, dependant on which side of the argument you are on.
Some people seem to desperately want the extra WIS bonus to AC, some don't.

Say luvvie.
Bye.

 

[monboesen]

Well I guess I wasn’t really finished posting on the subject anyway

Can’t really show a character from a real game as no one in my games fit the bill. But I think the following would more or less be what I would expect from a standard non-power gamer.

I’m assuming 28 pt buy, a starting wisdom of 17 (str 11, dex 10, con 14, int 12, wis 17, cha 8) increased to 19 and pretty low physical stats as most druids past 6th level will spend a lot of time in wildshaped forms with good physical stats. I would not expect the druid to ever be in a combat situation without wildshape unless surprised (and even then it will be along the first actions, it’s just hard to beat a buff that nets you +16 Str, +9 Con and +5 natural armor). The druid will, of course, have the Natural spell feat.

I’m also assuming standard wealth (66,000) and 11th level as this is the earliest that allows the belt following the DMG suggested guideline of max ¼ wealth spend on a single item.

I’m assuming that the druid will want to have a good AC in both normal and wildshaped form. And that the druid will want to keep wisdom as high as possible.

I’m assuming that the belt, amulet and bracers do not meld in wildshape forms that could reasonably wear them (according to Rotg) as this is how we play it in my games.

I’m also assuming that the Wild armor does not give any armor check penalties or max dex bonus in Wild shaped form. (This is not how I actually rule it as it brings up problems with the Master of many forms prestige class). I’m only using special materials found in the SRD. With other material the hide armor could be exchanged with a breastplate for +2 AC (but not touch AC).

Druid 1
Monks belt 13000
Periapt of wisdom +4 16000 (29000)
Bracers of armor +3 9000 (38000)

AC in human form 20 (+1 belt, +3 armor, +6 wis), touch 17, flat-footed 20
AC as Brown bear 25 (-1 size, +1 dex, +1 belt, +3 armor, +6 wis, +5 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 24

Druid 2
Hide armor wild +1 16000
Large shield animated +2 16000 (32000)
Periapt of wisdom +4 16000 (48000)

AC in human form 18 (+4 armor, +4 shield), touch 10, flat-footed 18
AC as Brown bear 23 (-1 size, +1 dex, +4 armor, +4 shield, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 23

It would seem to me that druid 1 have spent less money and has an overall better AC. His touch AC is 7 points better. An 11th level wizard has about +6-7 to hit with those nasty touch attacks. That’s 35% less chance (and about 50 % of being hit total) of being hit by that disintegrate, enervation and so on.

Lets move on to 15th level (as my games never really go beyond this). Wealth is 200.000 and max spent on a single item is 50.000, Wisdom is by now 20.

Druid 1
Monks belt 13000
Periapt of wisdom +6 36000 (49000)
Bracers of armor +7 49000 (98000)


AC in human form 26 (+1 belt, +7 armor, +8 wis), touch 19, flat-footed 26
AC as Dire bear 33 (-1 size, +1 dex, +1 belt, +7 armor, +8 wis, +7 natural), touch 19, flat-footed 32

Druid 2
Hide armor wild +4 49000
Large shield animated +5 49000 (98000)
Periapt of wisdom +6 36000 (134000)

AC in human form 24 (+7 armor, +7 shield), touch 10, flat-footed 24
AC as Dire bear 31 (-1 size, +1 dex, +7 armor, +7 shield, +7 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 30

The conclusion is the same. Druid1 has spent less money and has better overall AC. The difference in touch AC is even greater now and Druid2 will virtually be hit by all touch attacks, whereas druid1 will still avoid many touch attacks.

All this of course depends a lot on your campaigns rulings on wildshape and melding of items. But IMC this more or less standard druid would be better of with the belt even in his own form.

 

[Diirk]

Well no duh, you gave him wild Hide armour for heaven's sake ! Hide armour is hands down the worst armour type possible... spending a feat on heavy armour proficiency for fullplate isn't uncommon, or failing that, even an ironwood breastplate is better than hide.

Assuming he spent the feat, wooden fullplate is easy to make. At 11th level the druid is capable of casting ironwood by himself, so he can have that on it fulltime.. there's no real need to bother with permanency etc, just cast it once every week or so. This gives the druid in your 11th level example +5 AC right there, for an extra 1000 gp.

Also your druid in human form with the monks belt can't use the shield... that would nullify his wis bonus.

AC in human form 28 (+1 belt, +7 armor, +8 wis, +2 shield), touch 19, flat-footed 28
AC as Dire bear 33 (-1 size, +1 dex, +1 belt, +7 armor, +8 wis, +7 natural), touch 25, flat-footed 32

How did turning into a dire bear raise his touch ac by 6 ?

 

[Prism]

Good comparison.

Just a small point about the wooden shield the monks belt druid carries. Surely they couldn't use this with the belt

Also for an extra 350gp the wild hide armour could be a dragonskin breastplate giving 2 more points of armour. If the druid wasn't fussed about to hit penalties in human form (assuming no penalties in wild shape) then a set of dragon hide full plate is an option for a few thousand or a set of ironwood full plate for almost free if you don't mind recasting it every week or two

I think that one other benefit of the wild armour druid is that they don't in fact have to max out WIS. A good number of the great druid spells don't allow saves and I wouldn't say that a maxed spellcasting stat is as important as it is for most arcane casters and clerics

I have to be honest that to me it all seems very balanced either way. If it was ruled that the monks belt only gave the +1 AC I really cannot see anyone wanting it at all for a non monk. With the +1 +WIS and a maxed out stat it seems about equal to the other methods available for a high AC

 

[monboesen]

Ahh. Good call about the shield and touch AC. I'll edit that out. If you read closely I did take into account the possibility of some wonky material breastplate. The main points still stand. Druid1 will have the (slightly better) AC and a far better touch AC for less gold.

A 11th level druid has 4 feats. Spending one of them on an armor proficiency is a heavy cost. And the monks belt one will not take that. I'm assuming they are equal except for the equipment. I'm sure there are plenty worthwhile feats in the Complete X books and Races of X books that a druid would want.

And as for maxing out your spellcasting stat. Thats always a good idea unless you are going for a multiclass build with less than full caster ability. More spells, higher DC, better will save. Honestly why not, its not even expensive.

And then there is the fact that the monks belt druid will always have the belt on. No matter the situation. Sleeping, social situations, swimming it does not matter. Not so with the armor. At 11th level you should experiencing plenty of attempted ambushes and surprise attacks as first strike and initiative matters more and more with levels.

But hey I'm not expecting total agreement here. I don't think it is clear cut in every campaign but I really really do not like the wording on this item. I know that IMC with lots of undead and magic the belt will be the better option, every time.