Monk's Belt help

[Lonely Tylenol]

Which of course is very reasonable. But the special materials section of the SRD states that a medium sized one comes from a colossal dragon (and makes larger dragon hide breastplates and full plates non-existant).

It also means that an armorsmith can apperantly buy a colossal dragon skin for a a couple of thousand gp (to make a profit by the prices of dragon hide armor). Which again indicates that you can find individuals who will hunt and kill colossal dragons for a couple of thousand gp. I wonder what risks these hardy dragonkillers would take for bigger money, say 10.000 gp.

Killing a dragon is its own reward. See: treasure entry for any dragon.

Selling the skin afterward is just to pay for beer & pretzels once you come back from the fray.

 

[KarinsDad]

Can’t really show a character from a real game as no one in my games fit the bill. But I think the following would more or less be what I would expect from a standard non-power gamer.

It seems a bit like power gaming for high level by sacrificing low level to me.

I’m assuming 28 pt buy, a starting wisdom of 17 (str 11, dex 10, con 14, int 12, wis 17, cha 8) increased to 19 and pretty low physical stats as most druids past 6th level will spend a lot of time in wildshaped forms with good physical stats. I would not expect the druid to ever be in a combat situation without wildshape unless surprised (and even then it will be along the first actions, it’s just hard to beat a buff that nets you +16 Str, +9 Con and +5 natural armor). The druid will, of course, have the Natural spell feat.

I’m also assuming standard wealth (66,000) and 11th level as this is the earliest that allows the belt following the DMG suggested guideline of max ¼ wealth spend on a single item.

I’m assuming that the druid will want to have a good AC in both normal and wildshaped form. And that the druid will want to keep wisdom as high as possible.

...

The conclusion is the same. Druid1 has spent less money and has better overall AC. The difference in touch AC is even greater now and Druid2 will virtually be hit by all touch attacks, whereas druid1 will still avoid many touch attacks.

All this of course depends a lot on your campaigns rulings on wildshape and melding of items. But IMC this more or less standard druid would be better of with the belt even in his own form.

Although this sounds convincing on the surface, I think it is a little bit flawed in practice in the case where the Druid actually goes from level 1 to 2, 2 to 3, etc. It is less flawed in the case where the campaign starts out at 15th level and players can start out with whatever equipment they want.

The numbers are ok, but the problem is:

What kind of AC did the Druid have from levels 1 through 10 in order to survive and get to level 11?

The wealth chart goes:

02 900
03 2700
04 5400
05 9000
06 13000
07 19000
08 27000
09 36000
10 49000
11 66000
12 88000
13 110000
14 150000
15 200000

Now, the Druid could outright acquire the Monk's Belt at level 10 (since there is a 13000 GP gap between levels 9 and 10), however, this does break the 25% rule.

So, the earliest he could get the Bracers +3 AC is level 9, the earliest he could get the Monk's Belt is level 11, and the earliest he could get the Periapt of Wisdom +4 is level 12.

He buys the Periapt of Wisdom +6 at level 14 and the Bracers of AC +7 at level 15 and all is right with the world.

Course, he spent most of his newly acquired wealth on 4 of the last 6 levels, but that's ok. He can do that.

His normal/touch/wild shaped AC at various levels was (I will include +1 dex +2 natural armor for black bear at level 5, +5 natural armor for brown bear at level 8, and +7 natural armor for dire bear at level 12, I did not include Gloves of Dexterity to any of the builds because he could not use them in wild shape and still get claw attacks IMO):

1 to 4: 14/10
5 to 7: 15/11/14 (+1 Ring of Protection)
08: 16/12/17 (+2 Ring of Protection)
09: 17/12/20 (Bracers of AC+3 since he can use the bracers and ring in wild shape)
10: 18/13/21 (+1 Ioun stone)
11: 23/18/26 (Monk's Belt)
12: 26/21/31 (Periapt of Wisdom +4)
13: 26/21/31
14: 27/22/32 (Periapt of Wisdom +6)
15: 31/22/36 (Bracers of AC+7)

2K + 8K + 9K + 5K + 13K + 16K + 36K + 49K = 138K

And, he is min-maxing his stats at first level in order to do this much later on in the game. From first to fourth level, he cannot wildshape at all and has to survive with only two stats above +0.

So, he is pretty much stuck at lower levels with leather armor and a shield and Barkskin until he slowly acquires smaller AC boosting items such as a Ring of Protection +1. His chances of surviving at lower levels is significantly less.


Let's compare that to the Druid who actually wants to survive at lower levels.

str 14, dex 14, con 14, int 10, wis 15, cha 8. Strength 14 allows him to actually carry a reasonable amount of equipment and it allows feats with str 13 mins and it gives him +2 to hit and +2 damage at levels 1 through 4 when he cannot wild shape (and also at higher levels when he can no longer wild shape during the day). Dexterity 14 allows for a +2 AC and Reflex boost and feats with dex 13 mins such as Dodge. He does take the -1 to Will saves in this build and -1 skill per level (course, he could always go str 12 and int 12 instead).

His AC at various levels was:

1 to 4: 16/12
5 to 7: 17/13/14 (+1 Ring of Protection)
08: 18/14/17 (+2 Ring of Protection)
09: 19/14/20 (Bracers of AC +3, to gain AC in wild shape mostly)
10: 20/15/21 (+1 Ioun stone)
11: 22/15/23 (+2 Animated Darkwood Heavy Shield)
12: 22/15/23 (Periapt of Wisdom +2, he doesn't need all of that wisdom, but this is cheap)
13: 26/15/27 (+2 Wild Dragonscale Breastplate )
14: 26/15/27 (Periapt of Wisdom +4, just so that he does not fall too far behind in spells)
15: 29/15/30 (+5 Animated Darkwood Heavy Shield)

2K + 8K + 9K + 5K + 16K + 4K + 28K + 16K + 49K = 137K

This druid will survive easier at most levels until he hits level 12. And, he still can boost his AC from armor in the future another +3. The Monk's Belt Druid can only boost his armor AC 1 more (Bracers of Armor +8, using core rules).

Finally, let's compare with the stats from the second Druid using the Monk's Belt.

1 to 4: 16/12
5 to 7: 17/13/14 (+1 Ring of Protection)
08: 18/14/17 (+2 Ring of Protection)
09: 19/14/20 (Bracers of AC +3)
10: 20/15/21 (+1 Ioun stone)
11: 22/19/25 (Monk's Belt)
12: 25/22/30 (Periapt of Wisdom +4)
13: 25/22/30
14: 26/23/31 (Periapt of Wisdom +6)
15: 30/23/35 (Bracers of AC+7)

2K + 8K + 9K + 5K + 13K + 16K + 36K + 49K = 138K

This is the best build of the lot (and Monk 1 / Druid X is even better at lower level both AC and saves). He has a better chance of survival at lower level and only gave up 1 AC, 1 on Wisdom saves, and a few spells at higher level to accomplish this.

AC is critical at lower levels. At higher levels, it does not matter as much unless you can boost it really high. Other aspects of the game (such as saving throws) matter a lot more because you will be getting hit a LOT more in combat at the higher levels.

There is no doubt about it. The Monk's Belt helps the Druid class more than most other classes. But, it is not absolutely required. It will give you a decent AC especially in wild shape (still not great) and it meshes well with the Periapt of Wisdom. It is good if you want to wildshape in combat a lot, but your AC even in this case is not that special for a combatant (e.g. 15th level Fighter with +5 Mithral Plate, +5 Shield, Dex 16 is AC 33 for a mere 56K without any other Dex boosting items, he can easily get another +7 AC for AC 40 from a +4 Ring of protection and Amulet of Natural Armor +3 and still only spend 120K total).


Note: These are a bit of extreme examples. Charisma 8 is definitely a "let's let the other PCs do most of the roleplaying" stat. And in real game play, it is unlikely that a PC druid will actually get ALL of these AC boost items in any of the builds. Hence, the reason to not have Wis 17 and spread those extra 5 points into other useful stats like Strength and Dexterity (and even Charisma). Spells will help you to survive at higher levels, but stats will help you more at lower levels. IMO.

 

[Nail]

Selling the skin afterward is just to pay for beer & pretzels once you come back from the fray.

Ah. Well that accounts for it, then.

IMO, the dragonhide armor rules are entirely messed up. Not only are the prices outrageously low, but the benefits are paltry for all but druids. Name one reason a fighter-type would want dragonskin armor, other than panache.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Well, at least the thread has been hijacked to another subject by now.

The description of the belt is simple an unambiguous: you get the AC bonus of a 5th level monk, which is Wis+1. You can not like it, you can house rule it (just one forum down!), but that's the way it is.

The more interesting question to me is whether you do normal or subdual damage (nonlethal is such a dork term) and whether you provoke AoO. Since the case for subdual damage and having AoO seems stronger, it really seems like a balanced item to me. Sure, the AC bonus is cool, but the attack bonus is minimally useful.

 

[KarinsDad]

The more interesting question to me is whether you do normal or subdual damage (nonlethal is such a dork term) and whether you provoke AoO. Since the case for subdual damage and having AoO seems stronger, it really seems like a balanced item to me. Sure, the AC bonus is cool, but the attack bonus is minimally useful.

"Unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk" does not state "unarmed strikes of a 5th-level monk". They are different game mechanics. The unarmed damage portion of the unarmed strikes section under Monks is its own paragraph. If it said "unarmed strikes of a 5th-level monk", then you would get the subdual damage and AoO aspects. It does not use that term.

 

[Philip]

The description of the belt is simple an unambiguous: you get the AC bonus of a 5th level monk, which is Wis+1. You can not like it, you can house rule it (just one forum down!), but that's the way it is.

Since you mentioned it, to get back on topic: which of the two points of view do you think the following text from Complete Arcane (p. 36) supports, and why?

Monk Abilities: An enlightened fist adds her class level to her monk level to determine her class-based AC bonus, her unarmed damage, her unarmored speed bonus, and the number of daily attempts of her Stunning Fist feat. Is she has no monk levels, she gains the AC bonus, unarmed damage and unarmored speed bonus of a monk whose levels equals her enlightened fist level, but she can't add her Wisdom bonus to her AC.

 

[KarinsDad]

Since you mentioned it, to get back on topic: which of the two points of view do you think the following text from Complete Arcane (p. 36) supports, and why?

Monk Abilities: An enlightened fist adds her class level to her monk level to determine her class-based AC bonus, her unarmed damage, her unarmored speed bonus, and the number of daily attempts of her Stunning Fist feat. Is she has no monk levels, she gains the AC bonus, unarmed damage and unarmored speed bonus of a monk whose levels equals her enlightened fist level, but she can't add her Wisdom bonus to her AC.

It does not support either because it is totally not applicable to the question at hand.

It is a different ability from a PrC. It supports its own rules, but not other rules.

 

[Philip]

It does not support either because it is totally not applicable to the question at hand.

It is a different ability from a PrC. It supports its own rules, but not other rules.

I don't know, but I thought each rule exists in a context. Just as each word exists in the context of a sentence, and each sentence exists in the context of a paragraph, etc.

Since the designers of the rules are trying to communicate their intentions of how the rules are supposed to be handled, I will use any available information to adjucate the rules and divine the designer's intentions. This is especially so if a particular rule (in this case the Monk's Belt) seems incongruent with other rules.

The relative power of the Monk's Belt suggests to me that they didn't intend for the Wis bonus to be added to AC, even if you read the text literally and interpret it out of context, you would be able to infer that it does.

When I read the quote provided above, it immediately suggested to me that is was why the designers wanted to write the Monk's Belt, and because they have since 'wisened up', they included it.

But it seems to me you dislike talking about 'designer intentions'. For all I know your next argument could be that a non-Monk wearing the Monk's Belt should get an unarmed damage of 1d8+2, because when take literally, that is the unarmed damage of a 5th lvl Monk (see page 118 DMG). To me, the designer's obviously intended to refer to the Monk level progression table in the PHB, but it doesn't say that anywhere.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is especially so if a particular rule (in this case the Monk's Belt) seems incongruent with other rules.

Except that it does not seem to be incongruent. It appears to be consistent. Monks have varying AC due to varying Wisdom, just like Rogues (and most other classes not in restrictive armor) have varying AC due to varying Dexterity.

It is very consistent with the rules about Monks.

Now, it might appear to be unbalanced, but that is not the same as incongruent.

But it seems to me you dislike talking about 'designer intentions'. For all I know your next argument could be that a non-Monk wearing the Monk's Belt should get an unarmed damage of 1d8+2, because when take literally, that is the unarmed damage of a 5th lvl Monk (see page 118 DMG). To me, the designer's obviously intended to refer to the Monk level progression table in the PHB, but it doesn't say that anywhere.

If we knew designer intent, we wouldn't need to have the conversation. Would we?

As for your example here, it goes beyond ludicrous.

Why would you think that the NPC Monk example gives you any information at all on the abilities of a different character? On the other hand, you think that a special ability in a PrC should tell us how to use a magical item.


You are quite free to play the game any way you want to. Nobody is stopping you.

But on a rules forum, yes, I will discuss the rules as written as opposed to a nebulous and subjective designer intent that we do not know in the more obscure cases (which I do not consider this one to be). And, I won't let the PrC ability of one class influence my decision on what the rest of the rules state. The entire INTENT of PrC abilities is to give characters abilities above and beyond the normal abilities and sometimes even the normal rules of the game.


Does the fact that an Elixir of Hiding uses an Invisibility spell to craft it mean that you gain invisibility when you drink it? No. These are different specific rules that apply in different circumstances.

The Invisibility spell in no way, shape, or form indicates anything about the rules of how an Elixir of Hiding works.

Ditto for enlightened fist and Monk’s Belt.


Btw, I do think that this is a balance issue and I do think that the Belt should only give +1 to AC for non-Monks. But, I also think that you cannot determine designer intent outside of what is actually written. If the designer says AC of a 5th level Monk, I suspect that that is precisely what the designer meant. Now, once a designer finds out about the balance issue, he might FAQ it to only be +1. But, that has not happened yet.

 

[anon]

So no one has really shown a horribly broken druid build--just a few combinations which are slightly better (with monk's belt). And a few which were worse.

A few posters have mentioned "designer intent" without any evidence to back themselves up. And I say this seriously. There are email addresses available to those who want to contact the "designers", or their designated email answerers, and actually find out what they intended.

No one at all has suggested that the "alternative" interpretation (+1 AC) is even vaguely justified in price/power. (This interpretation would force me to conclude that there was a typo in the price and that the designer intented it to be 1,300 gold.

And, finally, the language in the DMG is not very ambiguous, IMO.

My personal conclusion is: WIS + 1.

edited for spelling.