D&D 5E Monks Suck

2. If you aren't allowing short-rest character classes to get short rests, then ... you are deliberately disadvantaging over those people who chose that class mechanic for their character. Which means that it is incumbent on you to allow a balance between the long rest and short rest classes; you can use the alternate "5 minute" short rests, or what have you. But simply throwing your arms up in the air (like you just don't care) and saying that the class is weak because you aren't allowing for short rests isn't a failure of the class.
A DM should most certainly be designing their encounters such that not getting a short rest every 2-3 combats should be exceedingly rare. And to realize that if they don't do that, they are deliberately going against DMG guidance and a consequence of that is that it will punish primarily short rest classes.
The DMG guidance is wrong in this instance. It runs up against how stories are organically structured and tells the DM to damage internal consistency for game balance. And a lot of DMs, understandably, aren't going to design the adventure of 'escape from the zombie apocalypse before the city goes on lockdown' or 'storm the caves and stop the cultists from sacrificing the princess' to allow for convenient 1-hour rests. Which isn't that big of an issue even for classes that like frequent short rests like the BM Fighter and the Warlock. It's just that the monk drops off really hard if the DM decides not to damage the story for the sake of gameplay.
 

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Dausuul

Legend
Except, we in the 'charts and graphs' camp know that those kinds of stories are a waste of time, because people will just dismiss all of that with 'oh yeah, well, in MY campaign monks did this and this and made the DM mad by stunlocking the spellcaster BBEG'.
Charts and graphs are equally, or even more, a waste of time if you don't account for all of the important elements of a class. And most of the chart-and-graphers aren't even trying to. They just do a DPR calculation, observe that the monk's direct personal DPR lags that of other classes, wave off all other factors as irrelevant, and call it a day. (The fact that Treantmonk of all people is leaning on DPR as the measure of a class's worth continues to boggle my mind.)

I think the anecdotes are far more illuminating than the numbers game. They at least reflect a scenario where all factors have been taken into account. If you really want to do a statistical analysis, build a D&D combat simulator, set up parties with different members, and run a few thousand combats. I have done this in other contexts, and it's remarkable what you can learn about class balance that you would never have gotten from simple DPR calculations.

(It's a whole hell of a lot of work, though. Many many hours. There's a lot that goes into D&D combat.)
 

Esker

Hero
Once every few rounds. Big deal.

It's likely to be about every other round or so, in my experience, assuming a competent party that focuses fire. But I do agree that it's a useful addition. Using the bonus action for that in round 1 means you fall behind flurry-of-blows damage for that round, which is a little rough because the first round is the most important. Relative to a non-flurry round, you're about even --- 2d6 at the cost of 1d6+4, say. But if you flurry the next round, you gain 4d6 * (to-hit) damage --- maybe 9-10 or so on average. So you've increased your damage-per-round in the first two rounds by 4.5-5 or so. It's nice, for sure! Of course, you need to maintain concentration.

Actual baseline damage is about 2d8+8 per round, corrected for d20 swing, which the monk does at-will just like anyone else. The rogue does more on a hit because a miss hurts their output more, and everyone else (Including the monk) spends something to go past that. Maybe not the fighter, but they don’t get the third attack action attack until 11.

I'm not sure 2d8+8 is a really relevant baseline for anybody. First of all that assumes a one-handed weapon, so martial characters either have dueling style, or reckless attack, or sneak attack... Dueling style becomes 2d8+12... reckless attack increases damage output by about 50%. And then we get into abilities that use resources but are close to being "at will", like Hex and Hunter's Mark --- they're a 1st level slot for an hour of use. By tier 2 that's pretty indistinguishable from an at-will ability. And then you get into subclass abilities, and feats...

The reason Treantmonk uses EB+AB+Hex as a baseline is that it's an extremely simple tactic that involves a relatively no-brainer investment (take agonizing blast), is essentially "at-will", and is on a class that has lots of other features that they can use alongside that baseline. It's a low bar for damage for a martial class, because they're not bringing the other features that a warlock brings, so they'd better be better at fighting than the warlock if we're going to consider them to be carrying their weight.

The problem with monks isn't that they have to spend resources, it's that the return on those resources is really low, and they don't have enough of them --- even assuming a standard number of short rests! --- to go toe-to-toe with anybody else in terms of their bottom line contribution.

Unless it’s a battle where there are only creatures that will go down in 1 round (a boring, unchallenging, fight) then there are good uses of it.

A battle with creatures that go down in one round is just fine if that's happening with the group focusing fire, and if there are enough creatures that the whole fight doesn't end in one round. If a typical combat is 4 rounds, say, then a combat with 4 enemies means that, on average, one of them is going down per round. With more than 4 enemies, on average more than one is going down per round. Unless the party is splitting up their efforts causing nobody to go down for the first three rounds and then all of the enemies to go down at once in the last round (which is just bad tactics), interesting fights (which means fights where there are at least as many enemies as PCs so that the party doesn't just curbstomp with their action economy advantage) you're typically going to have enemies going down every round.

That rogue is in serious trouble at my table, if that’s their strategy. They’re absolutely gonna need Uncanny Dodge.

The scenario we were discussing was one where the rogue takes their turn before the melee characters have closed into melee --- because otherwise they have sneak attack and don't need to ready. It's not a matter of readying an action every round; it's a first round tactic that allows the rogue (absent places to hide, or having a familiar in range, etc.) to get sneak attack off that round.

Both of you, and some other folks, seem to value ranged combat much too highly, as well. Do your DMs not include spellcasters, archers, flyers, and slippery skirmishers, in your battles? I’d consider any fight where the ranged characters are safe to be either an intentionally easy fight, or a fight that I failed to design well.

Who said anything about ranged characters being "safe"? They're saf_er_, because on balance monsters are stronger in melee, but I don't remember saying anything about ranged characters having no need for defense.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
The DMG guidance is wrong in this instance. It runs up against how stories are organically structured and tells the DM to damage internal consistency for game balance. And a lot of DMs, understandably, aren't going to design the adventure of 'escape from the zombie apocalypse before the city goes on lockdown' or 'storm the caves and stop the cultists from sacrificing the princess' to allow for convenient 1-hour rests. Which isn't that big of an issue even for classes that like frequent short rests like the BM Fighter and the Warlock. It's just that the monk drops off really hard if the DM decides not to damage the story for the sake of gameplay.

That's not a real excuse. You don't design the endless waves to just kill all the characters, do you? That's not part of the DM's story, is it?

No? Somehow, I am guess that this amazing storyteller of a DM manages to put in some time and thought into when the characters might be able to take a long rest ... heal up, get their spells back, and so on. He can plan for the needs of the cleric and the wizard.

But not the short rest characters. This DM can't even be bothered to use the variant "5 minute" short rest rules. It seems to me that "storytelling" is just an excuse to not bother using a core D&D mechanic that is incorporated into the game and is fundamental to a few classes.

But more importantly, if the issue is that the DM doesn't give short rests, you can't blame the class for the DM's inability to work within the ruleset.

It would like if I said Wizards are terrible, because my DM doesn't allow spellcasting, and without spells, they aren't that great. The problem isn't the class.
 

Esker

Hero
I think the discussion about "getting enough short rests" is a distraction. It's true that monks suck more if there aren't enough short rests, but I, and I think Treantmonk too, and most of the other monk critics, grant a standard number of rests when we do our analyses. You can even give the monk "at will flurry of blows" if you want --- it doesn't redeem them.

Put it this way: for an apples-to-apples comparison, you can compare a monk to a warlock, since both get all their core stuff back on a short rest, and so the frequency of short rests shouldn't in principle have a differential impact on the two. You show me a monk build designed to do X and Y, and unless X or Y is "run real fast" I'll show you a warlock build that does X and Y better.
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I think the discussion about "getting enough short rests" is a distraction. It's true that monks suck more if there aren't enough short rests, but I, and I think Treantmonk too, and most of the other monk critics, grant a standard number of rests when we do our analyses. You can even give the monk "at will flurry of blows" if you want --- it doesn't redeem them.

Monks do not need either you or Treantmonk to redeem them. They are loved just as they are.

They aren't the scions of evil. They aren't Bards.
 

I guess you posted this one while I was writing up the other match, but sure, let's try this too. I'll go

Vuman (Dex/Con) Battlemaster, Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter.

Fighting Style: Archery
Maneuvers: Precision Attack, Menacing Attack, Trip Attack
Equipment: Half Plate, Hand Crossbow (+8 to hit), Longbow (+8 to hit), Shortsword (+6 to hit)

S: 12, D: 16, C: 16, I: 8, W: 13, Ch: 8
Acrobatics +6, Athletics +4
AC: 17
Initiative: +3
HP: 49

How should we go about this? Want to actually play out a best of 3? I don't want to clog up this thread, but we could do a play-by-post thing in Discord, or in a DDB PM, or an asynchronous Roll20 thing, or...

Odds are I go first.

I advance and attack your Crossbow (attacking an object; as per the PHB) first and then your Longbow. I have 4 attacks to do so (both have an AC of 15 and 5 HP for the crossbow and 10 HP for the longbow). One of my attacks with the attack action is unarmed, the other with my sword, and both flurries are also unarmed strikes.

Needing 8's to hit, roughly 3 attacks should land.

Minimum unarmed damage destroys the crossbow (5 HP), and average sword damage destroys the Longbow (9.5 HP)

I probably dont get to destroy your Shortsword in time, but I'm 1 Ki point down (and my AC is now 19).

Your turn.
 
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Charts and graphs are equally, or even more, a waste of time if you don't account for all of the important elements of a class. And most of the chart-and-graphers aren't even trying to. They just do a DPR calculation, observe that the monk's direct personal DPR lags that of other classes, wave off all other factors as irrelevant, and call it a day. (The fact that Treantmonk of all people is leaning on DPR as the measure of a class's worth continues to boggle my mind.)
In the monk's instance, going by DPR is warranted. For a few reasons.

1) The monk doesn't bring much to the table besides DPR. The monk doesn't heal, it doesn't put additional tokens on the board, doesn't buff, doesn't unlock party transportation options, crush ability checks, interdict monsters, alter the terrain, any of that. It's not even particularly good at maneuvers like item use, grappling, or shoving -- which can be really powerful in the right hands, see the Pro-Wrestler Bard or any Necromancer Wizard.

2) For the non-DPR things it does do, it doesn't do them well. If Stunning Strike targeted INT instead of CON saves, that would be itself completely change the dynamics of the class even with its other weaknesses. But it doesn't. In the long run, it's not a particularly reliable form of control due to its limitations (requires a hit with a low-damage melee weapon and forces a failed CON save).

Even when the Monk can do non-DPR things, like the Shadow and 4E Monk, it often runs headlong into the ki point limitation. Yeah, as a 7th-level monk I could use Pass Without Trace before and between these two encounters... and then only have three freakin' ki points to spend over two combats.

3) Going with point 2, the monk runs into another problem: ki points and bonus action clog. Yeah, as a Shadow Monk I could do some cool teleportation tricks in the right environment... but then my damage for the round tanks and I can't even use Flurry of Blows. Or how about if I took Magical Initiate or a level of Ranger for some Hex/Hunter's Mark Action? No FoB for that round. If I'm a level 11 Kensei, no FoB for round 2, either.

The Open Palm Monk is the only monk I even consider in a non-DPR context before T3, just because it can do non-DPR things without draining a limited resource or being subject to bonus action clog.
 
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G

Guest 6801328

Guest
And if you run your campaign such that short rests are more common than usual, monks and warlocks rock.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
The DMG guidance is wrong in this instance. It runs up against how stories are structure and tells the DM to damage internal consistency for game balance. And a lot of DMs, understandably, aren't going to design the adventure of 'escape from the zombie apocalypse before the city goes on lockdown' or 'storm the caves and stop the cultists from sacrificing the princess' to allow for convenient 1-hour rests. Which isn't that big of an issue even for classes that like frequent short rests like the BM Fighter and the Warlock. It's just that the monk drops off really hard if the DM decides not to damage the story for the sake of gameplay.

No, the guidance is not wrong. If the DMG recommends doing something a particular way and the DM decides to ignore that guidance, they should know there's going to be a problem. Which stunningly enough, there is.

It is up to the DM to realize they're ignoring guidance and then realize they either have to warn the players that their campaign might not be suitable for short rest classes or come up with ideas to avoid it being a problem.
 

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