Monster attacks and advancement

[Ahrimon]

Maybee I've missed this, but I can't seem to find a ruling one way or the other on what happens to a creatures attacks when it advances. Specifically what happens to a creature with multiple attacks when it advances it's BAB high enough to warrant additional attacks.

For example creature X has a Claw/Claw/Bite routine. The claws are the primary attack and the Bit is the secondary. Now this creature just advanced from BAB of +5 to +6. Assume a str of 10 to keep the numbers clean. For characters this would mean an additional attack with your primary weapon. Well, for this monster, the primary weapon is two claw attacks. I seriously doubt it just doubled it's number of attacks to four. So you can see I'm a bit lost.

So far I've come up with:
Original BAB +5
Claw +5 /Claw +5/ Bite +0

New BAB of +6.
1. Keep it the same but bump the attack bonus by one:
Claw +6/ Claw +6/ Bite +1
2. Gain one additional attack with the primary weapon at -5 from the base
Claw +6/ Claw +6/ Claw +1/ Bite +1
3. Gain one additional attack fromt he primary attack at -5 from the base
Claw +6/ Claw +6/ Claw +1/ Claw +1 / Bite +1
4. Something else.

Right now I think I can rule number 3 out. But I'm not sure if it should be number one or two. While #1 keeps things simple, #2 seems the most logical progression for attacks.

Can anyone help?

Ahrimon

 

[Ahrimon]

And a quick appology in advance if I sound like I'm rambling, or I don't respond right away. It's 2330, it's been a long week and I'm tired.

Thanks again

Ahrimon

 

[Grazzt]

#1 is correct. Monsters do NOT get additonal attacks (regardless of their BAB) with natural weapons.

For examples, look at the Huge Monstrous Scorpion (MM 3.5)....

 

[Ahrimon]

Ok. But here's the monkey wrench. What if the increase from BAB comes from class levels? If the claw/claw/bite routine belongs to a huminoid creature that add 6 levels of fighter to take his BAB over +5. It feels wrong to have to tell the player of that character "sorry, but if you had used a manufactured weapon, then you could attack more." If a human can learn to swing his sword multiple times, then why couldn't a different one with claws learn to make more claw swipes?

If it comes down to sorry, that's just what the rules say, then I can accept that. I would just like to find a way, in the rules, to improve the number of claw attacks per round without resorting to house rules.

Ahrimon

 

[BeauNiddle]

Take a level of monk?

Monsters usually get multiple attacks (claw/claw/bite/tail/wings/etc.) which make up for not getting itterative attacks. If you really wanted itterative attacks with one attack form (claw1 but not claw2 and definitely not bite/tail/wings/etc.) then you could consider them as making unarmed attacks. A level of monk or taking TWF feats would allow some use of claw2 but allowing full itterative attacks with all attack forms would cause an instant TPK by most of the monsters.

Of course, if you're the DM and it bothers you that much, you could just create a monstrous feat and give it to all the bad guys.

 

[Stormrunner]

Yep, official rule is natural attacks never, ever increase. However, this sucks for critters like, say, an awakened wolf, who would be stuck at 1 attack/round forever, even at 20th level. OTOH, you don't want munchkinizers taking an awakened dire lion character and getting 7+ attacks/round during a charge.

The house rule we've been using, which seems to work fairly well, is that if your BAB would give you more weapon attacks than natural attacks, your number of overall natural attacks increases accordingly. So, take an awakened bear with claw/claw/bite. If her BAB increases to +16 (which would give a sword-swinger 4 attacks/round), she can make one extra attack (claw or bite, her choice) at a cumulative -5 per additional attack (so claw+16/claw+16/bite+11/claw+11 or claw+16/claw+16/bite+11/bite+6). An awakened wolf at BAB+16 would get 4 bite attacks (at +16/+11/+6/+1, just like the sword-swinger). This still gives a slight advantage to critters with multiple "primary" attacks, such as the bear in the above example, but not so much as to be unbalancing, especially if the DM is strict about the inherent limitations of an animal character (no hands, no civil rights, etc.).

For critters like centaurs and wemics, which can attack with both weapons and natural attacks in the same round, they have two choices, both of which are treated as Two-Weapon Fighting. They can either make their full weapon attack sequence plus ONE natural attack (as the "off-hand" weapon), or their full natural attack sequence plus ONE weapon attack (as the "off-hand" weapon). The normal two-weapon penalties apply to all attacks, including the natural attack (which is always considered a "light" weapon). Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, etc., increase the number of off-hand attacks normally. Again, this keeps the number of "extra" attacks the same as what would normally be granted by the Two-Weapon feat chain.

 

[ciaran00]

I see this as one of D&D's existing holes. 4e will probably address the gap between monsters and PCs...

This is how I use it:

Say a monster has this: Atk1 +x/Atk2 +y/Atk3 +z/ ... /Atkn +m
With a class that gives him this: Atk1 +a/Atk2 +b/Atk3 +c/ ... /Atkr +s

When applying class bonuses to monster attacks, I apply the first attack bonus to what is considered the first attack for a monster's natural attacks. So if claw/claw is Atk1 then add +a to +x. If bite (Atk2) is next, then add +b to +y. If more monster attack routines are left over than class-bestowed attacks, then too bad. Those are unmodified.

The reverse is also true. The bonus a monster has to his first set of attacks gets to be applied to his first attack. Second to his second, etc.

I don't think it's munchkinism for monsters that are intelligent enough to progress through classes to do so. They are 1) paying for these levels as per the system, and 2) are subject to LA and racial HD XP penalties because D&D already acknowledges that something like a dragon is much more powerful (experienced) than a class-less elf. At super-epic levels, dragons WITH classes are able to cope with death-dealing PCs.

EDIT: Also, it's silly to say that a fighter can't train in natural weapons. It's an unnecessary yet-another advantage for the already overpowered monk class.

ciaran

 

[Ahrimon]

I think I'm getting a little lost in what you are saying there ciaran. If I understand what you do correctly then when a creature with a natural attack progression of claw/claw/bite gains a BAB of 11 it would have attacks of
Claw +11/Claw +11/Bite +6/ ??? +1

Hmm. On second thought. I don't think your example is sinking in.

Stormrunner -
Interesting. I'll have to run that by the DM and see what he says. We're pretty much playing by the core rules so I don't know what he'll say. Plus I tend to be the resident rules lawyer. I try hard not to bring anything up in the game, but every now and then I speak up before I realize I've done it. So bringing up a house rule that benifits my character alone feels rather munchkiny to me.

For the full story. I don't think my character is going to survive our next session. The DM runs a game where if you hit a random encounter that's too tough for you then so be it. It's a dangerous world out there. Unfortunately I think he's misreading the random encounter charts for the wilderness. Instead of making one of his own for the appropriate average cr of the area, he's rolling a die and counting down the list for the type of terain. Then once he knows the creature type he goes to that entry and rolls for number appearing. It's making wilderness travel very hostile. And since we are on a ship, there is really no escape. So I'm planning my next character. I figured since I've played just about every base class so far, I would try my hand at a monstrous race. I've always liked the picture of the lizardman. So I figured a lizardman ftr2 (We're 5th lvl right now.) might be nice. But I would like to primaryly use natural attacks. And as I go up in level, I'm going to be further and further behind in the attack progression. So I came here seeking advice and help from a great (and more versed than me) community.

Ahrimon

 

[Jubilex]

By the rule, natural attacks never improve. Look at the dread wraith (3.5), it has only one attack at +16 so it sucks a little bit at this level (10-12). In the other way if it could make 3 touch attacks at +16/+11/+6 that would be deadly (2d6 dmg + Fortitude DC25 vs 1d8 Constitution drain).

 

[Stormrunner]

Instead of making one of his own for the appropriate average cr of the area, he's rolling a die and counting down the list for the type of terain. Then once he knows the creature type he goes to that entry and rolls for number appearing. It's making wilderness travel very hostile. And since we are on a ship, there is really no escape. So I'm planning my next character. I figured since I've played just about every base class so far, I would try my hand at a monstrous race. I've always liked the picture of the lizardman. So I figured a lizardman ftr2 (We're 5th lvl right now.) might be nice. But I would like to primaryly use natural attacks. And as I go up in level, I'm going to be further and further behind in the attack progression. So I came here seeking advice and help from a great (and more versed than me) community.

Ahrimon

Wow. So, you're equally likely to encounter either a stirge or a great wyrm black dragon? Yeesh. I wouldn't stand for that without protest.

I prefer the 1st ed lizardman picture myself. IMC lizardfolk look more like Jurassic Park raptors than the ugly pseudo-homanoid faces 3rd ed seems enamored of.

The lizardman's natural attacks are weak: c/c/b for 1d4/1d4/1d4. The bite damage is weaker than the standard 1d6 for a Medium creature. They don't even get a tail slap anymore. The +5 natural AC is nice (you're your own suit of scale mail) but without armor or shield you'll lag behind a standard fighter.

My suggestion: make him lawful neutral, and spring for monk/druid. Druid is your favored class; take 3 levels in it to get the class movement abilities and the ability to cast 2nd-level buffing spells, then start taking levels in monk. Druid gives you Survival skill and the whole "child of nature" bit; monk lets you do the "fight naked with claw and fang" bit without your damage and AC being horribly pitiful. You'll want to put your highest two scores in Dex and Wis. Lizardfolk gives you a high Reflex save, Druid gives high Fort and Will saves, and Monk pumps everything, so your saves will be pretty equal. At some point you might consider an appropriate prestige class, such as Snake Lord, King of the Swamp, or Scaly Horror. (Note also that Balance, Jump, and Swim, which you get racial bonuses to, are all class skills for the monk.) The monk's "unarmed attack" can be a punch, kick, knee, elbow, head butt, etc. - no reason it couldn't be a claw or a bite. (Note, though, that the monk unarmed damage REPLACES the natural attack damage, it doesn't stack with it. But for you, even the 1d6 done by a lvl 1 monk is better than your natural attack anyway, and you get full Str bonus on all of them.)