Monster books: No love?

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
The IKCG is out ( I got it at my FLGS yesterday and started a thread in general for discussion ), and it has 400 pages of material - It includes more than enough setting material to start an IK Campaign, even though the "World" book is a few months out yet.

The above bolded statement is my point.

I hope you seriously don't pretend to inform me on what's out. ;)

I hope the paradigm of more meat for setting specific monster books like CoF and LotD continues. Less creatures for sure, but they are especially great for DM's running games in that setting.

Indeed. We have the quantity already...

The Monsternomicon has a LOT more generic utility than either of these books though,

How do you figure? I'm not seeing it, at least for Creatures of Freeport. Not sure what LotD you refer to is...
 

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mearls said:
So, you might now see the fundamental dilemma - companies are trying to break that familiarity barrier (wittingly or not) by sticking in lots and lots of detail. But that in turn cuts down the basic utility the book offers. In essence, the designer robs Peter to pay Paul.

Au contraire, Mike. How is providing information and hooks for a creature cutting down on the utility? It's not. IME, they bolster the utility by not only providing you with a creature, but context and ideas to make it easier to use, instead of relying on the often overtaxed GM to bridge the gap.
 

Another note:

Other than the more detailed monster books like Creatures of Freeport, I also appreciate the smaller more focussed titles like FFG's Lore Series and Green Ronin's Monsters of the Mind

As for why, I think there are two reasons.

One: you have to be more creative within your niche to make a book like this fly. I mean take a look at TOH II. Half the undead are zombie variants. But contrast FFG's Necromantic Lore. The book has undead, but you can't get away with just making beefy zombies. So the authors had to stretch, and came up with cool things like undead blood pools and spirit legions. In the end, I think that it makes for a much more fertile ground.

Second, I have heard editors say that authors are much more creative when their work is defined for them instead of when they are writing their own products. I think the same applies here.
 

I think the Monsternomicon approach is great, but I also like the idea of having lots of short monster stat blocks. The Monsternomicon encounters are basically prewritten for you, but sometimes I've got an encounter idea in mind and I just need the monster that fits it.
 

Psion said:
Au contraire, Mike. How is providing information and hooks for a creature cutting down on the utility? It's not. IME, they bolster the utility by not only providing you with a creature, but context and ideas to make it easier to use, instead of relying on the often overtaxed GM to bridge the gap.

Right, there's a line between having enough creatures and having enough detail. If my monster book has 20 new creatures, but none are CR 5 or less and your characters are 2nd level, the book doesn't have as much use for you compared to a book with 40 creatures that cover all the CRs. Or if you need a monster that is immune to fire - if I have fewer creatures in my book, there's a lower chance that want you need is what I have.

The detailed approach requires two important design considerations - fantastic art to hook in the DM, and a flexible, interesting basic monster concept. If the basic monster concept doesn't hold you, all those words I spent on plot hooks, ecology, sociology, and so on are wasted.

So, if we look at utility in terms of "Will this book see use?" the more creatures we have in a book, the greater the chance that what you need is in there somewhere. On the other hand, you need enough detail on a creature to use it, so there's no clear answer.

I think part of the tendency lies in the sort of voices we hear on the Internet. I have a theory that people who spend time on the 'net talking about RPGs are also the sort who are likely to use their downtime - when no one else is around, and they need something to do - to work on their campaign worlds are read RPG books. I think that sort of DM is much more likely to want, need, and use detailed monsters. He puts a lot of thought into his game and probably spends a lot of time building a world or detailing part of a published setting.

(There's also the inactive or dysfunctional gamers who think themselves out of gaming, but that's a whole 'nother topic, and a hairy one at that...)

On the other hand, I think there's a big population of gamers who treat D&D as more of a game, with monsters playing pieces that serve as obstacles. This crowd doesn't care quite as much for detailed backgrounds and hooks. Instead, they just need cool, versatile monsters to throw at the players. For this sort of DM, more monsters is better.

I think the big problem facing d20 publishers is that this population is far less likely to post to message boards. If my definition is right, they'd rather do something else with their free time. They still play and love D&D, but they spend less time outside of the game session, or adventure prep time, working on their campaign worlds.

Some key questions for a designer are: Can you achieve a balance between those two populations? Is it even a viable model of the market? Is it worth trying to balance the two objectives, or is it better to go for one or the other?

A more pertinent question would be: Do you pick out the monsters you want to use and design and adventure using them, or do you design the adventure and then pick monsters to fit into it? That's the key when you look at how people use monster books, and I think it helps draw that line between volume and depth for monsters.

Personally, I think Legacy of the Dragons is pretty much what I as a DM want out of a monster book - I think we made a pretty good balance between enough detail and too much detail.
 

Psion said:
The above bolded statement is my point.

I hope you seriously don't pretend to inform me on what's out. ;)



Indeed. We have the quantity already...



How do you figure? I'm not seeing it, at least for Creatures of Freeport. Not sure what LotD you refer to is...


The IKCG containing "more than enough setting material to start an IK campaign" was my point.

I don't think "pretend" is the right word you were looking for, but I wasn't presuming either, just clarifying for those readers that might not be aware of any distinction.

LotD = Legacy of the Dragons. I included this in my example above, as this book does a great job of providing plenty of background and extras, but perhaps does not have as many creatures as a monster book of comparable size - But still plenty enough to make a useful book. Truly a standard for future creature books to be compared to.

If you take a closer look at the Monsternomicon again, there are really only a handful of monsters that would be completely out of place in an standard fantasy campaign. There are several contructs that may look somewhat out of place based on an artists rendering ( & you may want to change a name or two ), but the 3.0 rules are still intact and work quite well without a dependancy on a higher tech level.

Animations, The Deathjack, Mechanithrall, Pistol Wraith , Skigg, and Steamling are the worst offenders, but the dozens of other creatures are widely applicable.
 
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jgbrowning said:
This is something else I've noticed. Personally, I think that a lot of this has to do with the formation that monsters books use: Alphabeticaly listing each monster by name.

I agree this isn't the most practical for a properly organized monster book. But...

jgbrowning said:
This format's great when you're already familiar with every monster and it's relative power, but when faced with a new book of unfamiliar monsters, what GMs really need is a CR arrangement.

There, I disagree. I don't rely on CRs, personally, having seen that it just don't work for me. However, with so many monsters at my disposal, it's important to not use them gratuitously -- pulling a monster out of my DM's hat just because it's "appropriate" to the level of the party. And what I wish there were would be a thematical organization. One chapter per creature type. In the forsaken lab of a deceased mad wizard, I'll browse the undead, construct, ooze and aberration chapters to look out for what there could be. For the trip through the forest, I'll plane the encounters reading chapters about animals, plants, feys, and magical beasts. If the PCs, sailing toward terrae incognita, discover a new continent, I'll prepare its civilizations from the humanoids and monstrous humanoids sections. And so on.
 

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