Monster Manual IV and the Githyanki Psion

[GQuail]

A githyanki without psionics is like wizard without spells. I just don't see the point. There are inumerable other monsters and races you can choose if you're looking for just another humanoid from another plane. Why mess with something as classic as the Githyanki? It makes no sense.

Again: the Githyanki aren't without Psionics, they';re just using the core rules version of Psionics. (Which is just a different sort of SLA)

Furthermore, if you do use theXPH, then the Gith Fighter, GIsh etc are perfectly useable, and all you need to do is tweak their SLA to PLA. But if you aren't using XPH, then the XPH stats are worthless, or certainly require far more work on your part (and the writers part) to be salvageable. At the end of the day, I fail to see why erring to the former is somehow illogical: especially in a Monster Manual, which should be a relatively core book. (P)erhaps part of the issue here is the nature of MM4, and it;s "NPC book" status?)

I agree with Psions argument above, whould it have killed them to have just 4 pages of the book for those of us who like psionics?

Well, LIke I said above: those pages would be useless to people who don't use it, but the Githyanki fighter is perfectly serviceable to those who do. It's solid utilitarian thinking.

But the problem here seems to be that some people don't see Githyanki as core monsters but Psionic monsters: or rather, they see PSionics as Core. That's a bigger problem that only a new edition is going to fix.

 

[GQuail]

Joe Dungeonmaster can't use one or two pages from his two hundred page books because he doesn't own the XPH, so be it. The fact that he payed thirty cents for those pages and can't use them is outweighed by the fact the XPH owner payed thirty dollars for an entire book and can't use it because wizards won't inclued psionic support in their other products.

In all seriousness: why is a Githyanki Fighter useless to you? Why is it specifically the same kind of useless as a Githyanki Psion would be to a core rules user? Is it also as useless as an Orc Bards stats, since they should be Barbarians?

 

[Gez]

They could have had simply a sidebar saying that if we use psionics, then the gish can be fighter/psion or psychic warrior instead, and will have X power points and Y list of power, with the Z list of feat instead of what's given. I don't think it would take much space. And that's something they did before.

 

[BryonD]

Why must it be all or nothing?

"must"?

You only have a very limited number of pages to work with.
There are a far more races out there than will ever see this kind of treatment.
Something "must" be left out.
Why not maximize the utility by selecting races whose archetype can be most effectively demonstrated in the book?

 

[Vocenoctum]

"must"?

You only have a very limited number of pages to work with.
There are a far more races out there than will ever see this kind of treatment.
Something "must" be left out.
Why not maximize the utility by selecting races whose archetype can be most effectively demonstrated in the book?

I'm sure when they were selecting monsters they chose monsters they considered iconic or to fit a niche. Githyanki are good astral marauders with a social structure full of combatants.

Psionics have been included in many books, but the design behind MM4 meant they wanted to keep it modular. Adding psionics violated that basic decision, so they didn't.

I don't see how "if we use Githyanki, we must use psionics". I also don't see how that detracts from the material actually presented there. I have the psi book, I wouldn't have minded the inclusion of psi-material, and can see how it would added to the product. I just don't see how it's absence detracts from what's there.

 

[BryonD]

I'm sure when they were selecting monsters they chose monsters they considered iconic or to fit a niche. Githyanki are good astral marauders with a social structure full of combatants.

Psionics have been included in many books, but the design behind MM4 meant they wanted to keep it modular. Adding psionics violated that basic decision, so they didn't.

I don't see how "if we use Githyanki, we must use psionics". I also don't see how that detracts from the material actually presented there. I have the psi book, I wouldn't have minded the inclusion of psi-material, and can see how it would added to the product. I just don't see how it's absence detracts from what's there.

OK, clearly a not insignificant group do see it as a detraction. Otherwise this thread would not exist.

I would suggest that if WotC has a vast array of options and it is very easy to avoid one that is certain to disappoint a group of its audience, then it makes more sense to do that.

I really don't think that a section of hobgoblins, for example, would have created this type issue.

The fact that you are not in the group that is disappointed has zero bearing on this thinking.

 

[Vocenoctum]

OK, clearly a not insignificant group do see it as a detraction. Otherwise this thread would not exist.

<snip>

The fact that you are not in the group that is disappointed has zero bearing on this thinking.

Hard to judge really. How many posters on ENWorld make a "significant" group? People complain about everything, so it's not a big deal. In point of fact, plenty of people hated the inclusion of ANY "advanced" races, drow, githyanki or anything.

 

[Gez]

Yup. The two main reasons I'm not interested in getting MMIV are the Dragonspawn (the concept doesn't grab me, really) and the drow, githyanki, gnoll, etc.

Maybe if it had been expanded reprints with more lore for less developed monsters such as the kaorti, the dark ones, the thorn, the spellweaver, or, uhm, the witchknife; yes, why not? There's lot of fleshing out that can be done.

But Giths and dark elves? It's not like you can make three steps on the web without getting to a drow fansite with a 16000-article wiki on it. The amount of books with drow content, if piled neatly, would allow to build a space elevator.

That, and it we get an Official Year of the Dragon bestiary, and there are still no updates for the Amber Dragon and the Yellow Dragon (and I don't mean the on in Paizo's compendium, either).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Contrast with a statblock for a Githyanki Psion 4. What do you need? Well, descriptions of how power points work, psionic/magic transparancy rules, augmentation of powers, power descriptions, etc.

I feel this is an inaccurate view of what would be required.

There is the point that it could be a monster "just for those who know psionics," but I think this is a poor approach.

I think the much better justification for having psionic githyanki in the MM4 is that at this point, there is almost no excuse for not knowing the psionics rules. They are available for free online. They are being GIVEN away.

If the campaign doesn't use psionics, I certainly don't object to the other githyanki as well. A fighter AND a psychic warrior, a sorcerer AND a psion.

But there is, as far as I can see, no truly valid reason to exclude them. Githyanki ARE psionic. It's part of their character now. To ignore it is, I think, to limit yourself.

If they used non-core classes only available at a cost to the user, they should have included psionics as well.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I feel this is an inaccurate view of what would be required.

If they used non-core classes only available at a cost to the user, they should have included psionics as well.

True, it's a design decision not to require any book outside of the Core. They do not consider the SRD core, since they do not assume that their fanbase is knowledgeable about it. I'm not sure if the SRD even really gets mentioned in official products.

The entire point of the other non-core classes is that the book provides the information quickly and efficiently that you need to play them. Sure a ninja is used, but you don't need Complete Adventurer to use them. The same cannot be said about a psion. The line WotC drew is pretty clear I think, individuals can differ in their opinion on whether that was the right place for the line. We can't tell what the outcry would have been had they "wasted space on psionic stuff" in the MM4.