Monster Manual IV needs errata before its publishing?

[Egres]

I admitted it wasn't spelled out in exactly the words you requested. however, I believe I have demonstrated my 'something' several times over.

Demonstrated?

You didn't demonstrate anything.

If my problem with MWP (bs) is that it wouldn't make you proficient with the use of a bastard sword as a martial weapon, then the fighter's ability wouldn't either, but that isn't my position. MWP (bs) would make you proficient just fine, if you could take it, but for the reasons I listed above, you can't.
A fighter's ability to be proficient with all martial weapons also works just fine, and unlike MWP (bs) you can take it (if you take a fighter level, in which case you have no choice but to take it).

Fine, except for the bolded part...

For the "n" time you state something that you don't (and can't) demonstrate.

Stating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it more valuable.

 

[glass]

OK, I think I see where the disconnect is, now.

Let me ask you a question; ignoring for a second whether or not you can take MWP (bs), if you did take it, could you then use a bastard sword 2-handed without penalty?

Now if you are a fighter (proficient with all martial weapons), could you then use a bastard sword 2-handed without penalty?

I've admitted that you could argue that the answer to the second question could be 'no' (although it would be rather strange), but only if the answer to the first question is also 'no'.

You seem to be saying that if MWP (bs) does not exist, then the fighter's ability to be proficient with all martial weapons cannot help him with a bastard sword. IMO, this does not follow. As long as MWP (bs) would (if it could be taken) help a character, then the fighter's ability does too.



glass.

 

[glass]

Stating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it more valuable.

'Pot, this is kettle...'


glass.

 

[Kem]

Egres, prove that Bastard Sword is a Martial Weapon that can be taken as one.

I refute your examples of it being taken as a Martial Weapon as errors in those books. You cannot assume those are correct, as you have already contended that the MMIV is in error using the PHB/MM/DMG. Therefore in this case you must prove that the PHB/MM/DMG say that you can take it as a MW.

As my proof. The Fighter's ability with martial weapons is better then the bard's ability with martial weapons. Even if the bard has every Martial Weapon feat.

The Fighter's ability represents training at a certain level that allows him to use any and all martials weapons without penalty. His training is broad, and not specifically with any given weapon. If he finds a martial weapon that he has never, ever seen before, he can pick it up and use it.

The Bard can only use his list of martial weapons without penalty. He had to train specifically with each weapon to be able to use them. If he finds a martial weapon he has never, ever seen before, he can't use it.

So now in order to take Bastard Sword as a Martial Weapon, one has to prove that it should also be on the martial weapon list as a 2-handed weapon.

However, this is no good. That would increase its size, and also make it harder to sunder all of a sudden just because you have it as a martial weapon. Therefore I contend that it is not supposed to be there.

 

[saucercrab]

PH/SRD rules statements trump NPC examples and god favored weapon listings.

And it has yet to be pointed out where in the core rules that it says that bastard sword (two-handed) cannot be taken as a MWP feat.

You cited a single NPC in the FRCS and a god in a LGJ with a favored weapon of BS.

Those are not rules sources, those are examples of rules being used. They contradict the rules as written.

They don't contradict anything.

The only rules involved are the definition of bastard sword and martial weapons. Bastard sword in its description says it is an exotic weapon and it is not listed on the martial weapons chart.

Why list it twice? To save space, maybe, & just list the exception(s) in the weapon's description?

The rules say it is an exotic weapon. It specifically says it can be used two handed as a martial weapon but it does not say it is a martial weapon and it is not listed as a martial weapon anywhere in the core rules.

It does not say that it can't be taken as a MWP.

You listed an NPC in the FRCS and Kelanen's deity favored weapon in LGJ.

Martial Weapon Proficiency [General]
Choose a type of martial weapon. You understand how to use that type of martial weapon in combat.
Benefit
You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally.
Normal
When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special
Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.
You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A cleric who chooses the War domain automatically gains the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat related to his deity’s favored weapon as a bonus feat, if the weapon is a martial one. He need not select it.

So Kelanen and deity listings do not prove things one way or the other as non martial ones can be favored weapons, they simply don't give benefits.

Actually, I also mentioned Mayaheine, whose favored weapon line reads:
Favored Weapon (s): Bastard sword (m)

"M" is defined earlier in the document as thus:
An (m) in the entry for favored weapon(s) or other preferred weapons indicates a martial weapon. An (e) indicates an exotic weapon. If neither appears, the weapon is a simple weapon. Any flail (m) indicates a flail, heavy flail, or any other weapon that is both defined as a flail & as a martial weapon. Any martial sword (m) indicates a short sword, longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, & rapier. It also indicates any other weapon that is both defined as a sword & as a martial weapon; thus a bastard sword wielded two-handed meets this definition. Longbow indicates both standard & composite varieties; shortbow indicates likewise.


So, a cleric of Mayaheine who chooses War as a domain gets the MWP (bastard sword) feat. And doesn't need to be proficient in all martial weapons.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And it has yet to be pointed out where in the core rules that it says that bastard sword (two-handed) cannot be taken as a MWP feat.

It has been pointed out MANY times, most recently by glass in #139. So, stop saying it hasn't been.

 

[saucercrab]

It has been pointed out MANY times, most recently by glass in #139. So, stop saying it hasn't been.

Actually, no. Where does it say, "MWP (bastard sword) is not selectable as a feat?"

I'm looking for something concrete, not what could be inferred by the bastard sword description. (And that inference is negated by the two sources I listed.)

 

[Pielorinho]

Moderator's Notes:

Given the tone of this debate, fairly vitriolic from folks on both sides, and without much indication (to me, at any rate) that anyone's position is likely to change, I'm tempted to close the thread down. Honestly, I don't follow the argument (if y'all know me well, you can guess which side I'm sympathetic with, but that don't matter), but it does appear to me that things are going around in circles, with each side, astonished that their rock-solid arguments have failed to persuade their opposition, concluding that the opposition is being deliberately obtuse.

Is this a fair description? If so, I'll probably go ahead and close things up. But if y'all really feel as if there's room in this thread for courteous, productive debate that doesn't impugn the reading ability or argumentative competence of the opponent, lemme know, and I'll leave it open.

Daniel

 

[calypso15]

Is this a fair description? If so, I'll probably go ahead and close things up. But if y'all really feel as if there's room in this thread for courteous, productive debate that doesn't impugn the reading ability or argumentative competence of the opponent, lemme know, and I'll leave it open.

I vote you just shut it down. I think it'll be better for everyone's sanity in the long run, and it hasn't gone anywhere new in about 130 posts. (I purposely backed out, in order to preserve my own sanity.)

Calypso

 

[Infiniti2000]

Is this a fair description?

Yup. Shut her down.