Monsters and Multiple attacks.

[-Avalon-]

How about also letting each head of the hydra be marked separately?

I could see that... each has its own brain with 2 int each...lol

Swordmage marks one, paladin marks one, fighter marks one... I have a 6 person party, so I always think of 6 people parties now... right now, my group would is SM, Fighter, Cleric, Warlord, Rogue, Ranger

My group would mark two heads, quarry it, beacon of hope, furious smash (for +5, 6 at 12) and proceed to beat it into submission. Any damage the hydra did would be regained through cloak of walking wounded, dwarvish armors, potions of healing, prayers, warlord powers, etc etc etc... the hydra better have lots of buddies otherwise it dies and my group MIGHT rest...

Stupid dwarven armor saying "as if you spent a healing surge" really sucks lol... a lot of stuff says gain tons of bonuses whenever you spend a healing surge, and dwarven armor is exactly as if you spent one, so you gain all the bonuses that come along with it... for FREE grrr

 

[Gruns]

Rules As Written, if interpretted that way...

I just read the MM entry for Fen Hydra, which I ought to have done earlier. For Hydra Fury, it simply says "The fen hydra makes four bite attacks." Therefore, by RAW, each bite attack from Hydra Fury would have to be targeting the Fighter for it not to trigger Combat Challenge because each is an attack, regardless of the attack's action type (standard, minor or move).

Only if you interpret the ambiguous term "attack" to mean "every time you make an attack roll" instead of "when you use an attack power". As for me, I go with the latter. Thus the attack in this case is Hydra's Fury, which, if the fighter is bitten at least once, includes the fighter. My reasons for thinking this way were giving a few posts above. Makes sense to me, and thus, it's good enough for me. Interpret it how you like, though, as I do the same. The important part is that my players know how I am ruling this before it ever comes up. Actually, looking back at the original post, the important part is whether or not the Fen Hydra is overpowered. And I think that answer is still a resounding "no".
Later!
Gruns

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Only if you interpret the ambiguous term "attack" to mean "every time you make an attack roll" instead of "when you use an attack power". As for me, I go with the latter. Thus the attack in this case is Hydra's Fury, which, if the fighter is bitten at least once, includes the fighter. My reasons for thinking this way were giving a few posts above. Makes sense to me, and thus, it's good enough for me. Interpret it how you like, though, as I do the same. The important part is that my players know how I am ruling this before it ever comes up. Actually, looking back at the original post, the important part is whether or not the Fen Hydra is overpowered. And I think that answer is still a resounding "no".
Later!
Gruns

Fine, but if you say that then I would argue that the mark would apply to the other attacks as well. Meaning, while I couldn't hit you with a Combat Challenge for attacking other targets, you would still take a -2 for not including me in those attacks. While the mark and the Combat Challenge are closely linked, they're not the same. If an enemy teleports away from a Fighter (which won't provoke CC) and attacks someone else, the effects of the mark still apply.

So basically, the Hyrda would get 4 attacks. 1 would go against the Fighter to satisfy Combat Challenge, and the other three would be against other target(s) and would all suffer a -2 to hit. I think that this is a perfectly valid interpretation of the rules, especially with a power that has an option to attack multiple targets, but is not required to. This way, the Hydra can attach other PC's, but the Fighter can still feel like he's doing something.

 

[Lacyon]

Sure it does: it's called "reach 2."

Taking a Combat Challenge attack when you shift away from the fighter to avoid taking a Combat Challenge attack when you full attack another creature seems... masturbatory.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Taking a Combat Challenge attack when you shift away from the fighter to avoid taking a Combat Challenge attack when you full attack another creature seems... masturbatory.

Indeed it would be. The only thing that might make sense is to move away from the Fighter so that the Fighter will provoke an OA due to the threatening reach. Of course, the Fighter will get an OA when the Hydra moves, and if he hits, then the Hydra doesn't get to move. So that isn't a very smart tactic on any front. Which is why Fighters are sticky, even against Hydras!

 

[Lacyon]

Indeed it would be. The only thing that might make sense is to move away from the Fighter so that the Fighter will provoke an OA due to the threatening reach. Of course, the Fighter will get an OA when the Hydra moves, and if he hits, then the Hydra doesn't get to move. So that isn't a very smart tactic on any front. Which is why Fighters are sticky, even against Hydras!

I actually think the Hydra should be trying to move most rounds (so that characters have to move back through it's threatening reach), even if there's a sticky fighter next to him. He has a veritable mountain of hp; allowing one extra attack for the fighter to get potentially two more for himself is a good trade most of the time.

One of the five things a solo creature desperately needs in order to be an interesting fight is the ability to act at multiple points during a turn. Hydras only do this via Threatening Reach.

The Hydra still can't effectively escape lockdown except possibly swimming away (with two move actions, because the first could stop him).

Given all this, I just don't think it's a problem to allow the fighter to lock down only 1/4 of his attacks some rounds.

 

[Hymness]

I think the fighter get an OA. Because the makes 4 different bite attacks.

Otherwise, it would be stated something like "Hydra Fury: The Hydra makes 4 bite attacks to up to 4 targets within reach", isn't? I remember seeing this kind of statement.

 

[Kordeth]

I think the fighter get an OA. Because the makes 4 different bite attacks.

The fighter absolutely doesn't get an OA unless the hydra moves away. The debate is whether he gets a Combat Challenge attack, which is not an OA.

Otherwise, it would be stated something like "Hydra Fury: The Hydra makes 4 bite attacks to up to 4 targets within reach", isn't? I remember seeing this kind of statement.

Unfortunately, that language doesn't resolve anything, because the entire problem is whether "attack" means "uses an attack action" or "makes an attack roll," which is never clarified in the rules.

 

[Rafe]

As per usual, it's DM fiat. There are good arguments for the Fighter getting an attack unless he is the target of each attack. There are also good arguments for the four attacks resulting from a single standard attack action; so long as one of the attacks in the attack action targets the Fighter, no Combat Challenge attack.

It's a matter of how the DM and players see the RAW as intending to work.

 

[Christian]

Stupid dwarven armor saying "as if you spent a healing surge" really sucks lol... a lot of stuff says gain tons of bonuses whenever you spend a healing surge, and dwarven armor is exactly as if you spent one, so you gain all the bonuses that come along with it... for FREE grrr

Um, what? It says you gain hit points as if you'd spent a healing surge; I don't see how that applies to any other abilities or powers that trigger off healing surges actually being spent.

(We now return to your regular topic.)