Monsters and Multiple Attacks

[phloog]

I am still preparing to run my first foray into 4E (a 4A?)...and I'm finding that my forum search skills are lousy. I would think this is covered before, but here goes:

Even monsters only get a Standard/Move/Minor set of actions, and possibly action points and Free actions, right?

I think that's true, but then some monster entries confuse me...looking at the Young Red Dragon in the first monster manual, I see that there is a BITE entry and a CLAW entry (and some others)...

The BITE is a standard action, and At-Will, has Reach 2, is +14vsAC, and does 2d6+6, then an additional 2d6 fire.

The CLAW is a standard action, and At-Will has Reach 2, is +14vsAC, and does 2d6+6 only...no fire damage.

So if they only get standard/move/minor, why would an intelligent dragon ever use up their standard action on the claw?

There is a DOUBLE claw that is two claw attacks, but I get why that one's there since it can't be used as a Basic Melee, but the first two can.

I haven't seen any rule that says you can't use the same At-Will twice (once as a standard and then once with an action point), but maybe that's it.

Otherwise it seems like it's all just based in flavor (cooler to have some claw attacks and some bites), but if that's the case I think it's a slightly flawed design because it makes the rational/sensible conflict with the coolness.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, you can use the same at-will power twice if you use an AP, so the dragon could Bite, AP, Bite for instance. In general monsters follow the same rules as PCs. They are all technically 'creatures' and most of the basic combat mechanics rules apply to all creatures identically. The 3 main differences I know of between a PC and a monster are that monsters can use an unlimited number of APs in a single encounter, PCs can only use one. PCs can take the Second Wind action, monsters can't. Monsters die at 0 hit points, PCs get death saving throws.

As for the double attack type powers, they are perfectly useful. In the case of the example dragon it has a choice during its turn of using Bite, Claw, or Double Attack (or presumably other powers if available). Normally a red dragon in melee would probably choose to use its double claw attack, but if it wants to do max damage to one target it might choose to bite instead. As an OA it would have a choice of basic attacks, so it would probably bite, but it would have the option to claw.

It is true, there are many monsters that have basic attacks or other attack routines they would not use very often. There are always corner cases though. ALMOST all monsters at least have a melee basic attack for doing OAs or say if it is an artillery monster it might use its melee attack powers to avoid provoking. With a few monsters there is no real good reason for them to use a particular power and we can assume it is there more for completeness than anything else. Even so it is an RPG and some strange situation could come up that encourages a monster to do something that is normally not optimal or prevent it from using its more optimal powers.

I suspect what you'll see is that with MM3 and MV monsters there are less of these kinds of powers around. MM1 monsters in general are OK but they aren't as cleverly designed as the newer ones.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I am still preparing to run my first foray into 4E (a 4A?)...and I'm finding that my forum search skills are lousy. I would think this is covered before, but here goes:

Even monsters only get a Standard/Move/Minor set of actions, and possibly action points and Free actions, right?

I think that's true, but then some monster entries confuse me...looking at the Young Red Dragon in the first monster manual, I see that there is a BITE entry and a CLAW entry (and some others)...

The BITE is a standard action, and At-Will, has Reach 2, is +14vsAC, and does 2d6+6, then an additional 2d6 fire.

The CLAW is a standard action, and At-Will has Reach 2, is +14vsAC, and does 2d6+6 only...no fire damage.

So if they only get standard/move/minor, why would an intelligent dragon ever use up their standard action on the claw?

There is a DOUBLE claw that is two claw attacks, but I get why that one's there since it can't be used as a Basic Melee, but the first two can.

I haven't seen any rule that says you can't use the same At-Will twice (once as a standard and then once with an action point), but maybe that's it.

Otherwise it seems like it's all just based in flavor (cooler to have some claw attacks and some bites), but if that's the case I think it's a slightly flawed design because it makes the rational/sensible conflict with the coolness.

In practice you're slightly missing the impact of the double claw. So what happens is that the dragon shreds anyone it attacks physically with its claws - and if they turn their back its head snakes out at the end of its long neck and bites.

 

[OnlineDM]

The Claw exists for the Double Claw attack. If the dragon is making an opportunity attack, it will prefer to use its Bite (although maybe the PCs could find a creative way to sew the dragon's jaws shut, reducing it to claws only or something). But if it's taking a full standard action (rather than just a melee basic), it will usually prefer the Double Claw.

Could they have given the dragon just the Bite as a melee basic and then had a non-melee-basic "Double Claw" with its own stats ("The dragon makes 2 attacks, melee 2, +14 versus AC, 2d6+6 damage each")? Sure. But there's no reason to say that the dragon couldn't swipe with a claw instead of bite as a melee basic if it wanted to, so both options are there.

 

[DracoSuave]

So if they only get standard/move/minor, why would an intelligent dragon ever use up their standard action on the claw?

If a dragon uses his bite to grab (perfectly legitimate) then his mouth is used up, and he's resorting to claws.

Also, the Double Claw is based on the claw power, so it needs a claw power to reference.

 

[phloog]

Okay, these make sense, particularly the 'cannot double an attack that isn't specified', and I didn't think about the mouth being preoccupied - all that it looked like to me was two attacks that were identical in all aspects but damage output. Aside from the mouth preoccupation, though, it's true that the claw (single) won't be used. That works, thanks!

 

[Aegeri]

It's also important to realize that a creature only gets one opportunity attack per turn (usually). So a dragon with a very powerful single basic attack, with a weaker multiple attack can be a considerable threat with that single attack out of his turn. So for an AoO, the Dragon will always use its bite if possible and use its claws for its day to day actions. This is especially true of White Dragons, who get ridiculous bonuses to damage whenever they make an OA.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Aegeri, I'm not sure what you're saying.
A monster or PC only gets one opportunity attack per turn but that's per turn, not per round.
So if 3 PCs act in 1 round and, say, use ranged attacks while adjacent to the dragon they will each take an opportunity attack.

In most cases you only get 1 interrupt per round (there may be monsters or feats or items somewhere that have or allow more) but opportunity attacks are per turn, not per round.

 

[BobTheNob]

Have a look at the icons as well. The "Claw" is a basic attack, and therefore can be used with an AoO (or , if there was another way of granting basic attacks, like a dragon lord riding the dragon ), whereas the "Double Claw" is not, and therefore cannot be used with anything except a standard action on the dragons turn.

So when would you ever use "Claw" instead of "Double claw" on a standard action during the dragon turn? Never (unless you are going easy on the party). When would you use "Double claw" instead of "Claw" outside of the dragons turn? Never...its illegal.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

True, but the point about you'd just use bite instead for an OA is valid in this particular case. Monsters aren't all perfectly designed so that every single power they have is necessarily something they will use regularly though. Some powers like Claw really only exist so that Double Claw can utilize them and otherwise might only factor in for some weird oddball situation. It isn't worth over thinking really. I could name a whole bunch of other monsters that have powers that nobody is EVER likely to actually use, but they have them for whatever reason. Sometimes probably just for completeness and other times maybe just for corner cases or maybe no good reason at all.