Monsters as PCs ???

[Walking Dad]

That is the official stuff:
Monsters as PCs

Looking at the purposed 'minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level', I see some problems. Looking at the old rules:

Minotaur :: d20srd.org

a minotaur in a 10th level group should have 2 level barbarian
(6 HD & LA+2 = 8; 10-8=2)
Only 8 HD (6 racial, 2 class) and low class abilities, but (supposedly) good racial abilities and high racial ability mod.

What would be the racial ability mods in Pathfinder?

What they say:

Ability Scores: The creature's ability scores are listed here. Unless otherwise indicated, a creature's ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11. Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8); in both cases, the creature's ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description.

Taking the standard spread, we could deduce:
(3.5 were: +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma)

Standard
Str 19 - 13 = +6
Dex 10 - 12 = -2
Con 15 -11 = +4
Int 7 - 9 = -2
Wis 10 - 10 = -
Cha 8 - 8 = -

Nets +6 in both (3.5 & Pathfinder) cases.

6 level Monstrous humanoid net

• 6d10 Hit Die.
• Base attack bonus +6.
• Good Reflex and Will saves.
• Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for monstrous humanoids: Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.

So, evaluating a 10th level human fighter (10 HD) vs a 8th level minotaur fighter (14 HD)

Humans
wins:
1 fighter bonus feats
(the 1 human feat advantage is canceled because of the feat on 11HD for the minotaur)
6 skill ranks (human bonus)
Weapontraining 2 (Mino has Weapontraining 2)
Bravery +3 (Mino has Bravery +2)

looses:
net +4 ability bonus.
+4 Bab
4 x 1d10 HD
large size (reach, large weaons)
darkvision 60 ft
natural cunning
powerful charge
gore attack
Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Survival

Conclusion: Has anyone a functioning system?

 

[MerrikCale]

Take heart, in a few years they will have a Savage Species type book

 

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, in a 10tth level Party: You are as minotaur + (class) 8: yes 14 HD at level 10.
BTW: this is new minotuar though not much changed-
Minotaur

 

[Aus_Snow]

Ayup, it's been one of the thorniest issues of 3e since, well, 3.0 was released. And, as you say, still is, 3.pf included.

A poster by the name of 'Will' came up with a neat solution to this very problem, and posted it in the (3e) house rules forum here not so long ago. It's not perfect (as, IIRC, I might've mentioned in that thread ) -- however, it is IMO a much better starting point than 3e's or PF's. If you like his general approach to begin with, of course. Be warned though, that if you use point buy (32, to be precise) it will be much easier to use, or tinker with.

I'm still ironing out the kinks in my own system for this, though for 3.5, not PF. I actually find it easier doing this with the CR and LA in the statblock, as a base to work from.*

Anyway, if I end up satisfied with the results, I will see what I can do about converting it over to Pathfinder. If necessary, even.

* Mind you, what I would really like to achieve is a flawless 1:1 system for 3e, wherein CR == ECL, every time. It'll take some time. . .

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It sounds like I'll still be using the Arcana Evolved approach- racial classes- if/when I run Pathfinder.

 

[James Jacobs]

* Mind you, what I would really like to achieve is a flawless 1:1 system for 3e, wherein CR == ECL, every time. It'll take some time. . .

That'd obviously be the BEST solution for monstrous PCs (MPCs?). But it would mean completely redesigning how monsters are built... they'd have to be built as PC races first and foes second. That's an awful lot of work to support a relatively small niche of play experience, unfortunately.

There's certainly a demand for an MPC book... the question for us at Paizo is: "Is that desire greater or lesser than the demand for an Asia book, a Psionics book, an Epic book, a Sci-Fi book..." etc.

Arcana Evolved's approach is actually a pretty good one, I think, in the meantime.

 

[Aus_Snow]

That'd obviously be the BEST solution for monstrous PCs (MPCs?). But it would mean completely redesigning how monsters are built... they'd have to be built as PC races first and foes second. That's an awful lot of work to support a relatively small niche of play experience, unfortunately.

Eek, I hope not.

I'm working on it atm, and it's all about getting the ECL just so, partly thanks to different values being assigned to each type of monster HD (e.g., Fey or Dragon.) Basically, a work of reassessment, rather than of total overhaul.

There's certainly a demand for an MPC book... the question for us at Paizo is: "Is that desire greater or lesser than the demand for an Asia book, a Psionics book, an Epic book, a Sci-Fi book..." etc.

Completely understand. Still, hope to see it some day, especially if that open playtest thing keeps going.


edit --- and for me (fwiw) it'd be MPC, Epic, Psionics, Sci-Fi, (Asia). Not that I don't like Asian fantasy stuff (I do) - it's more that I can easily do that myself, using more or less the same mechanics as for anything else. Not so *any* of the others.

 

[MerrikCale]

There's certainly a demand for an MPC book... the question for us at Paizo is: "Is that desire greater or lesser than the demand for an Asia book, a Psionics book, an Epic book, a Sci-Fi book..." etc.

From my poitn of view, I would put them in this order: asia, epic, monster PCs, sci-fi and psionics

 

[Walking Dad]

...
There's certainly a demand for an MPC book... the question for us at Paizo is: "Is that desire greater or lesser than the demand for an Asia book, a Psionics book, an Epic book, a Sci-Fi book..." etc.

...

My list:

1 - Psionics (so I don't have to use the old SRD or 3rd party products for this)
2 - Asia (the region Golarion information is lacking)
3 - Monster PC's (listed here, so you could include stuff from the above books )
.
.
6 - Epic (good to have, but not urgent)
.
.
.
.
23 - Sci-Fi (not needed, unless you include a) the other planets in the Golarion Setting, b) steam tech, and or c) something like Spelljammer.

 

[TroyXavier]

Psionics for sure

Asia would be nice, MPC all right, SciFi mehhh, Epic only if it balances well.