Monsters as PCs ???

[Aus_Snow]

Savage species is not a book I ever owned . . .

It was a valiant attempt. Or at least, I'll give the creators the benefit of the doubt and assume that.

But it doesn't solve *any* of the problems associated with LA/ECL, bar one. And that is, you can start as 'Level 1'. Um, yeah.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep.

His improvements included the whole thing about full class benefits (the SS versions didn't necessarily give HD, BAB bumps, etc. at each level), and not forcing the PC to have to take all or any levels in the racial class.

 

[Burn_Boy]

Sorry if this totally throws the discussion off but my group and I found a bit of a solution to this problem... although a Monsters as PCs book from Paizo would be an excellent solution too.

Anyway my group and I, what we do since we've had people playing Orcs (full Orcs, no half Orcs) and Drows, what we do is let them keep the racial stuff they get but they have to deal with racial persecution everywhere they go. This may not work for people who prefer balanced function over pure role playing but it works for us. No matter how many holy symbols you burn into your flesh the church is going to try to hang a Drow until his legs stop kicking before they understand that his sole purpose is to find the Holy Avenger and bury it in Lollth's heart.

 

[Votan]

Sorry if this totally throws the discussion off but my group and I found a bit of a solution to this problem... although a Monsters as PCs book from Paizo would be an excellent solution too.

Anyway my group and I, what we do since we've had people playing Orcs (full Orcs, no half Orcs) and Drows, what we do is let them keep the racial stuff they get but they have to deal with racial persecution everywhere they go. This may not work for people who prefer balanced function over pure role playing but it works for us. No matter how many holy symbols you burn into your flesh the church is going to try to hang a Drow until his legs stop kicking before they understand that his sole purpose is to find the Holy Avenger and bury it in Lollth's heart.

This is a classic approach. If most or all of the characters are of races who are discriminated against then it may work. But what happens with a Drizzt who is known to be noble and good? What about the companions of the Drow?

What if a lot of the adventures are in the underdark?

What if the character plays a Pixie (invisible at will and generally not seen as a monster)?

 

[TanisFrey]

This is a classic approach. If most or all of the characters are of races who are discriminated against then it may work. But what happens with a Drizzt who is known to be noble and good? What about the companions of the Drow?

What if a lot of the adventures are in the underdark?

What if the character plays a Pixie (invisible at will and generally not seen as a monster)?

The pixie in a town will be seen as an annoying pest that is best run out of town, where it belongs. Brownies on the other hand are welcomed into town.

 

[Votan]

The pixie in a town will be seen as an annoying pest that is best run out of town, where it belongs. Brownies on the other hand are welcomed into town.

But how do the townsfolk detect something whose native state is greater invisibility?

 

[The_Gneech]

I handle this basically the same way 4E does: for critters that aren't that far out there, I create a custom comparable-to-human "player race" that has reasonable stat bonuses and a feasible "signature ability" associated with the critter.

For example, minotaurs would get +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, the Powerful Charge/Gore, immunity to mazes, and be described as "huge and hulking" even if they don't get reach or the mechanical modifiers for large size. Or, if the player absolutely couldn't live without being large size, treat them as being +1 ECL and charge them an "Exotic Background" feat.

If at any point the player were to kibitz about "normal" minotaurs having more abilities (never flat-footed, skill bonuses, etc.), my reaction would be, "When you are a CR 4 critter, you'll have all sorts of abilities they don't -- like weapon proficiencies and a bucket of feats. Get over it." Because I've found that when presented with the idea of actually playing a 1st level "monster class," most players balk at not having any class abilities, skills, or armor proficiency to speak of.

However, at some point, I just say no. I've never actually had a player want to play an adult dragon, so it hasn't been an issue. But I do have one who's constantly wanting to play gnolls (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision, +1 natural armor).

-The Gneech

 

[Walking Dad]

Sounds very reasonable.

In Pathfinder I would give

+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, the Powerful Charge/Gore, immunity to mazes

and something like powerful build (in the SRD, look at the half-giant) with no extra cost. The abilities already came up +/-0 instead of +2 like the official player races.

Adding racial feats to actually get scent, large size, etc.

 

[The_Gneech]

Well, those were just off-the-cuff examples to get the idea across, so the numbers probably need more serious crunching.

-The Gneech

 

[Walking Dad]

No real critic. I love your Sword & Sorcery Saga stuff. Almost a pity you stopped converting in favor of 4e. I like 'classic d20's modularity.