Monsters attacks

[Xeterog]

The party I DM is level 24 now. For quite a while, it seems that very few encounters actually challenge them at all as I can't hit with any regularity due to high defenses (every one has at least one defense, usually AC, in the low to mid 40's and the lowest is in the high 30's). Monsters of about level 24 have attack values ranging from 28 to 32, and with the high party defenses and a multitude of conditional modifiers (the ranger gets much higher defenses once hit by a creature of his level or lower, the warlock gets much higher defenses if attacked by something he has cursed, the cleric's 47 will, etc)...it just seems I'm not hitting much at all.

Now, I'm not out to kill them just for fun or anything, I just feel the combats, tho sometimes long, aren't a challenge at all to the party. But I don't know what to do about it.

One thing I'm considering is to give monsters the equivalent of expertise..(effectively a +3 to hit at epic level), but don't know if that would be fair or not.

Two things I have done (and did this in mid-heroic tier) alreay
1) Minons, traps, and hazzards add 1/2 their level to damage done (and do double on a crit)..this has made minons something to be taken note of, not just dismissed out of hand and ignored..the group seems to like this
2) All monsters get extra D6 on crits, like PC's do.
monster level 1-5 = 0d6
6-10 1d6
11-15 2d6
16-20 3d6
21-25 4d6
26+ 5d6 (I probably will give level 31+ 6d6)

What other things might be good to increase the challenge, without just giving them level + 5 encounters every time?

(party:
1/2 elf Paladin (MC cleric) doomguide/chosen (kelemvor0
human Cleric (MC bard) divine oracle/revered one
tiefling Warlock(fey) feytouched/demigod
Humand Wizard (MC bard) bloodmage/planeshaper
1/2 elf Ranger (archer) battlefield archer/dark wanderer
Dragonborn Ranger (beastmaster/melee) feral spirit/bahamut's Vessel)

 

[Dice4Hire]

I would recommend having epic level monsters crit on a 19-20, and if 31+ on a 18-20. In out epic gmae, even when they crit, it is not too scary, but more crits would help. Adding the extra d6s would help a lot also.

Finally, add mroe elemental keywords to powers. In out epic game, too many creatures are vanilla necrotic, and we all have resist recrotic of at least ten. SOem monsters cannot do any damage.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Odd, most parties suffer from the opposite problem. Its pretty tough to build a level 24 PC that isn't going to have at least one defense that is low enough that the character will be almost automatically hit. ACs in the 40's at level 24, mmmm, maybe at the extreme high end but definitely possible.

Essentially I'd be looking for the chance to hit the PCs in their weaker defense. They surely each have one. Remember too that equal level monsters aren't supposed to be a severe threat. If the PCs can laugh off attacks by a group of level 29 monsters, then I'd really be more bothered by it.

OTOH I guess if the players have thrown ALL their resources into defenses then they may be really hard to hurt. They should also be having trouble with their offensive capability too if that is the case.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I can't hit with any regularity due to high defenses (every one has at least one defense, usually AC, in the low to mid 40's and the lowest is in the high 30's).

I have to second the question. At level 24, those sound crazy high. In my level 23 group, the best defenses are 42, 40, a lot of high 30s and a lot of low 30s with the lowest being 32. And this is +3 from BLB, and we are not optimized for \defenses. (the 42 comes from hide armor expertise, which we have not erattaed yet)

 

[Xeterog]

I looked closer, and there are some mid-30's defenses in the group...but everyone has at least one 40 or over. The Epic Will/fort/reflexes along with Robust defenses gives just about everyone in the party +6 to Non-AC defenses. (why epic W/FR isn't a feat bonus i just don't know)...and then there are the conditional defenses (shield, +3 AC when not bloodied, -4 attacks from creatures your level or lower that have hit you, etc).

Giving High Crit ranges is something I haven't thought of...most of the PC's have it in some form. so why not monsters...maybe not every creature, but some should have it for sure.

 

[Aulirophile]

I looked closer, and there are some mid-30's defenses in the group...but everyone has at least one 40 or over. The Epic Will/fort/reflexes along with Robust defenses gives just about everyone in the party +6 to Non-AC defenses. (why epic W/FR isn't a feat bonus i just don't know)...and then there are the conditional defenses (shield, +3 AC when not bloodied, -4 attacks from creatures your level or lower that have hit you, etc).

Giving High Crit ranges is something I haven't thought of...most of the PC's have it in some form. so why not monsters...maybe not every creature, but some should have it for sure.

....They used three feat slots on epic defenses? All of them? That is a huge resource investment, you should be missing if they went that far.

 

[Xeterog]

4 slots actually..Epic Will, Epic fortitude, Epic Reflexes, and Robust Defenses.

And you can have 7 Epic feats by level 24 (3 from leveling and 4 retrains)

Not all of them have all 4 feats, but at least 2 (and possibly 3) have all of them, and everyone has at least one of the 4 defense feats.

And it's not just their base defenses..It's the Paladin sanctioning everything within a close burst 3 twice an encounter (so -2 to attacks if I don't include him...and 17 radiant damage...and they are weakened for that attack if they took the radiant damage, or any other of a number of powers that give minuses to attacks or boosts to defenses). I'm already thinking the party, as it is now, has an outside shot at taking Orcus down right now (and he's the level 34 from the end of E3, with lots of minion and non minion help). (probably not, but when they do met him at level 30ish, I don't think it's going to be the epic battle it should be).

 

[Aulirophile]

4 slots actually..Epic Will, Epic fortitude, Epic Reflexes, and Robust Defenses.

And you can have 7 Epic feats by level 24 (3 from leveling and 4 retrains)

Not all of them have all 4 feats, but at least 2 (and possibly 3) have all of them, and everyone has at least one of the 4 defense feats.

And it's not just their base defenses..It's the Paladin sanctioning everything within a close burst 3 twice an encounter (so -2 to attacks if I don't include him...and 17 radiant damage...and they are weakened for that attack if they took the radiant damage, or any other of a number of powers that give minuses to attacks or boosts to defenses). I'm already thinking the party, as it is now, has an outside shot at taking Orcus down right now (and he's the level 34 from the end of E3, with lots of minion and non minion help). (probably not, but when they do met him at level 30ish, I don't think it's going to be the epic battle it should be).

Yeah, I know, with the retrain rules. That is still a huge investment. Considering all of the really strong feats though I couldn't justify that. I shore up my weakest NAD and that is it (well, technically I get it for free, but that is just my group. I'd still shore it up, though).

Are you using enemy controllers/leaders appropriately? The -to defenses and +to attack work just as well for NPCs as they do for PCs.

 

[Mesh Hong]

What other things might be good to increase the challenge, without just giving them level + 5 encounters every time?
QUOTE]

It sounds like your group is just behind mine, I have posted a number of encounters from my game in the Houseules and Monster Creation forum these might give you some ideas.

In general my advice would be to throw away the encounter design rulebook. A standard challenge is now +3. +5 encounters are now the difficult encounters (as long as the creatures and enviroment are designed properly).

I would seriously consider redesigning all the monsters the PCs fight, or at least making an assessment of their damage (and increasing it), also like you said giving all creatures an actual critical damage is a very good idea.

At epic levels everything comes down to what is justified in the plot, really by mid epic you should be in a position where you can justifiably throw anything (monster, enviroment, plot twist or suprise attack) at your group and can try really quite hard to kill them. Personally I am pulling no punches and taking every opportunity I have to try and stop my team of epic killing machines from achieving their goals, and its amazing how hard it is to stop them.

 

[the Jester]

Zones, auras, monsters that apply bonuses or penalties to their allies/foes, aid another.

Be tactically savvy- use minions not to try to hit, but to aid another the bigger monsters. Use monsters whose big attacks still do half damage on a miss. Seek good monster synergies.