D&D 5E Monsters of Many Names - Wandering Monsters (Yugoloth!)

[Cyberen]

Using Hysteria in that sense has pretty much been abandoned by the medical community since 1980.

Thank you for this piece of information (I am quite aware that dr Charcot work is controversial and outdated, but I think the term is still in use to describe the same kind of symptoms).
I would definitely not call it polite, nor appropriate in the kind of discussion we're trying to have here. I am also quite sure I would get into serious trouble if I were to use it in a professionnal context, and that it is easier to call people names when you are in the comfort of the internet, rather than, say, at
arm length of the bloke you're addressing.
Steeldragons remark about Shemeska's interventions was spot on in my opinion. Dismissing it as hysterical is as rude as it is not constructive.
Having plenty of lore is interesting.
Being very knowledgeable is impressive.
BUT seeing this lore as "the true story of the setting" is offensive as far as i m concerned. For me D&D is a toolbox (and I am definitely not alone in this) and the incorporation of fluff in my toolbox made me reject 2e. You can't possibly claim it's a gold standard for the umbrella edition Next is aiming at, without seriously alienating a part of the players base. Calling these players "hysterical" will definitely not solve the issue.
Making very strong claims in the "core books" on the fluff runs contrary to the claim "every design is local" . If we were to promote local design, fluff, be it Planescape, has to adopt a posture of modesty and recede in the background a little.

 

[Shemeska]

I have no dispute with your expertise, Shemeska. After all, you wrote all of this cr-stuff, didn't you? I object to your "matter-of-fact-this-is-what-all-things-planar-are" perspective in what is supposed to be my fantasy world per Dungeons & Dragons.

Play what you like, but do try to lay off the personal attacks. 5e moving away from the 4e cosmology and its changes to lots of long-term planar continuity in the game has some folks on edge. That may or may not be the angle that you're coming from, but come on now.

As far as the "stuff" as you say, I've contributed only in pretty minor fashion to the published lore: something like a half dozen Dragon and Dungeon pieces, and some uncredited continuity editing on another.

The majority of my published material isn't actually for the Great Wheel. Neither I nor anyone else is going to make you need to use the Great Wheel in your own games, or any other specific cosmology. But from the standpoint of what has been part of D&D the longest, and what has been used as the go-to source for people writing material within the AD&D framework during that time, it's the Great Wheel and by extension Planescape. 4e was a deviation in that respect, and even then it cherry picked tons of concepts and locations from Planescape, especially as time went on. It's silly to me (perhaps not to you or others) to not go with some watered down version of PS/The Great Wheel as a baseline for cosmology and planar monsters in 5e.

 

[avin]

My own preference - I think fairly obvious by this stage of the thread - would be for them to sacrifice consistency/continuity to the pursuit of playability.

World Axis isn't more "playable" than Great Wheel, I think it's just a matter of preference. You can create a good story in any setting.

My personal preference is for a more neutral approach in Monster Manuals. Avoid references to things like Blood War or Primordials vs Gods (4E has a far more intrusive cosmology than PS), trace guidelines of cosmologies in DMG and bring back Planescape for those who want it.

 

[Umbran]

Well, now, let us see...

Only by people who are hysterically claiming that they're being attacked by the people who disagree with them.

The trouble really started here. Alzrius, arguments of the basic form, "Only those who are mentally unbalanced hold this position," are dismissive and INSULTING. You should not be surprised at the response you got - you broke the cardinal rule of treating the opinions of others with respect. And, you made it personal - you addressed the issue not to a fault in logic, but a personal emotional problem of the poster. Ad hominem, and asking for trouble.

Can ya do me a favor and find yourself a thesaurus...i think they even exist online these days...Look up "hysterical"...and just try to sprinkle in a few synonyms for me.
...
Not nearly as good as you quoting me about letting it die. Though I suppose, in all of my hysterics I can't really see clearly. No wonder you're doing a better job than I am. I'll just go put on my fun buckly sleeve coat now...maybe the nice man in the white coat will buckle it up for me again in the comfy soft bouncy room.

But you, sir, were not helping. Have you somehow missed the basic fact of the internet, that when you have a problem with someone else, sarcasm is a non-functional mode of rhetoric?

So, how about this... Both of you back the heck off. I strongly suggest you take the expedient of simply not responding to each other at all for the rest of the thread. We have an Ignore List feature, if yo need help enforcing your willpower.

 

[Alzrius]

The majority of my published material isn't actually for the Great Wheel.

When this debate pops up over the next edition of Pathfinder, though, you're going to be tarred and feathered.

 

[pemerton]

it's the Great Wheel and by extension Planescape.

This is what I don't agree with. Planescape is not simply an "extension" of Gygax's planar appendix, anymore than the Greyhawk campaign setting is simply an "extension" of Gygax's PHB and DMG.

I've shown by posts above (and/or in the other thread - they blur together in my mind), for instance, that the distinction between demons and daemons/yugoloths that is pretty central to Planescape is pretty peripheral in original AD&D.

4e was a deviation in that respect, and even then it cherry picked tons of concepts and locations from Planescape

I don't really agree with this either, though I do think it's less contentious than the "Planescape as extension of Gygax" idea.

My reason for disagreeing is this: in the same way that Planescape riffs on what came before, but injects a whole lot of new ideas, so 4e clearly riffs on what came before, but injects a whole lot of new ideas. The 4e gods are mostly not new, for instance - they're taken from a range of sources, from Roger Moore's old demihuman god articles (which for reasons I don't really understand have since become associated by many with FR) to Ed Greenwood's Bane to Gygax's Asmodeus and Lolth. The planes are a mix of old (Abyss, Seven Heavens/Mt Celestia) and new (Hestavar) and renamed (Chernogar as a somewhat repurposed Acheron).

I don't think this is best described as cherry-picking - which implies a type of suspect opportunism. It's riffing and reconcepting and homage and reimagining.

If D&Dnext is going to come with built in lore I would rather it do this sort of thing - try something that the designers think captures the best of what's come before while improving playability and appeal - than simply repackage the past.

(And because this seems to have been misunderstood by mutiple posters - this is not an argument for replicating 4e's content. It's an argument for replicating 4e's method.)

 

[jonesy]

People in this thread are throwing around words like canon, lore, continuity, history, retcon and core.

I keep getting told that next edition will be modular, and that one will be able to pick and choose what to use.

So what gives?

 

[Hussar]

In all honesty, I'd call an appropriate reaction one that isn't hysterical. Namely, by recognizing that the people who disagree with you aren't mandating how you play your game. Likewise, if you don't care for the tone of the discussion, it's better to stop engaging in it.

But, you are mandating what is in the game. You are mandating that all lore in the game must be Planescape compatible. And THAT'S what's being objected to.

 

[Hussar]

Planescape-as-core is not the same as Krynn-as-core or FR-as-core. Because it was, in part, effectively intended as the "Manual of the Planes" for 2nd ed. To explain how the planes worked for all D&D games, not just one. Now, you don't have to accept this as a good idea, or like it - but you should understand that this is the viewpoint we Cagers have. We're not trying to make our favorite setting into the core - we thought it was core from the beginning.

I don't expect you to agree with my position, but I'd like it if you understood what it was.

But, see, for those of us arguing against you, it was never core. It wasn't core in 2e, it was introduced in supplements. It wasn't core in 1e, it didn't exist yet. It wasn't core in 3e, at least not in core.

And that's where my objections stem from. Why do you get to say that your setting specific material, which was never presented in the core of the game, is actually part of the core of the game?

 

[Hussar]

/snip

But from the standpoint of what has been part of D&D the longest, and what has been used as the go-to source for people writing material within the AD&D framework during that time, it's the Great Wheel and by extension Planescape. 4e was a deviation in that respect, and even then it cherry picked tons of concepts and locations from Planescape, especially as time went on. It's silly to me (perhaps not to you or others) to not go with some watered down version of PS/The Great Wheel as a baseline for cosmology and planar monsters in 5e.

See, this is my beef right here. The Great Wheel is NOT and never has been, Planescape. The Great Wheel is core material in 1e. It's right there in the PHB and in other sources. I have no real problems with the Great Wheel as it's originally presented.

But, the idea that Planescape is indelibly connected to the Great Wheel is simply PS fans trying to backdoor their favorite setting into the core, when nothing about Planescape was ever core. Planescape, to me, is a separate entity that uses the Great Wheel as its base. But, I, for one, would much rather it was kept out of core and certainly never as a reason for not making changes.