Monsters, Women, Glory, and Gold!

[mmadsen]

Re: "voluptuous and beautiful women" ?!?

The title of this thread, "Monsters, Women, Glory, and Gold!", along with part of the description stating "voluptuous and beautiful women, who are also often terrifyingly dangerous as they are seductive" is (here it comes) very sexist, sterotypical, and the kind of thing I was hoping was finally, at last, gone from this game.

So the idea that some women in some stories are beautiful and dangerous is sexist? Is it sexist that some men in these stories are ruggedly handsome and dangerous too? Or are women not supposed to be exotically dangerous, but men are?

Why is it sexist that the women are attractive? Why is it sexist that the hero gets the girl? How is this different from any less sexist story?

When I asked some women (not a statistically large sample, but the only sample I had) why they did not play the game, or why they waited to play the game until they were older, they all said essentially the same thing: "Boys, when they are teenagers and first playing the game, did not want girls playing. When I tried to play, they didn't explain the rules very well (and the rule books were over-whelmingly large and complex, requiring a huge commitment of time to figure out, which didn't seem worth doing if I didn't feel welcome to begin with), they didn't treat me like an equal, and they made fun of me when I did something "wrong". I think it was a male bonding kind of thing."

And boys forming a "boys club" (which is perfectly natural, by the way) is somehow related to beautiful, dangerous women in a work of fiction? The boys didn't make girls feel welcome because they were afraid of voluptuous demon-summoning priestesses? Because they thought girls were only good for demon-summoning?

I think this game attracts a disproportionate number of men.

So it should give up any qualities that attract men?

I think it would be a good thing for this game, and for the entire genre of fantasy fiction as a whole, to attract more women.

Is any gender disparity in any activity intrinsically bad? Should every activity anyone enjoys be "neutered" until it's equally (un)enjoyable to all easily recognized groups: men, women, young, old, black, white?

"Conan-type fantasies portrayed women like that, and they were interesting/cool books/movies. We shouldn't have to change that just for political correctness. Nobody is making you play your game like this, you play your politically correct setting, and we will play our kind of setting."

You acknowledge this argument against you, and you don't counter it.

...drawings of women wearing silly chainmail bikini's with breasts that are larger than their heads.

And this in fundamentally different from a male hero with arms bigger than his head, going into combat wearing a leather loincloth?

 

[hong]

Re: Re: "voluptuous and beautiful women" ?!?

And this in fundamentally different from a male hero with arms bigger than his head, going into combat wearing a leather loincloth?

I've noticed? That mmadsen? Has this fascinating habit? Of ending every sentence? With an upward inflection? You know?


Hong "who has arms bigger than his head, if you know what I mean, and I think you do" Ooi

 

[mmadsen]

Exoticism, I think, is one of the key elements of obtaining the Howard feel.
...
Conan himself is a distillation of every imaginable masculine stereotype into a pure archetype of unbridled manhood.

You distill it all down quite nicely, kenjib. REH wrote about a world about as far from his small Texas town as he could imagine -- and about a lifestyle about as far from his own mundane life living at home with his parents (and writing to avoid real work).

 

[hong]

You distill it all down quite nicely, kenjib. REH wrote about a world about as far from his small Texas town as he could imagine -- and about a lifestyle about as far from his own mundane life living at home with his parents (and writing to avoid real work).

Thankfully, today we can download pr0n instead.

 

[Horacio]

Thankfully, today we can download pr0n instead.

Thankfully? Are you sure?
Maybe the REH of this generation donwloads pr0n and doesn't need to write... Was a talent waste!

 

[barsoomcore]

Originally posted by Joshua Dyal
In fact, as a design decision back in the day, I think perhaps that was one of the worst mistakes the original D&D had, which made it ultimately unsatisfying in many ways to me. The theme was very much based on Leiber, Howard and Moorcock (who were all similar in some ways) while the trappings were very Tolkien. It never seemed a sensible mix to me.

I actually disagree with this. I agree that the mix was there, I agree that it was never a sensible mix, but I kind of think that it was one of the reasons D&D did so well. It was weird, it was its own thing. The D&D world wasn't QUITE Tolkien, it wasn't QUITE Conan, it wasn't QUITE Moorcock or anyone. And the attempts we all made in those early days to run Conan campaigns or Elric campaigns never quite worked out just like the books, did they?

Because D&D, by virtue of building on a varied and incompatible foundation, became a unique world of its own. If it had been a game based on any one of those elements, it would have withered and died just like every game based on a single set of books has -- and Cthuluh doesn't count because a) the mythology was developed by a variety of authors and b) the game is, again, its own thing and doesn't really resemble, say, Lovecraft's own stories.

Haven't entirely thought that one through but I think I'm on to something there. And you may have found D&D ultimately unsatisfying, Joshua, but I bet you had you had a lot of fun with those old hardcovers before you did.

 

[kenjib]

Thankfully, today we can download pr0n instead.

Hehe - that or play Everquest. Someone needs to create an Everpr0n game. You would never see any men outside of their parent's house ever again.

 

[hong]

Hehe - that or play Everquest. Someone needs to create an Everpr0n game. You would never see any men outside of their parent's house ever again.

Good god, I think you've just found the solution for Middle-East peace.