Monte Cook On Fumble Mechanics

Fumble mechanics have been part of the tabletop RPG experience for decades. Even where games don't have a fumble mechanic, many players house rule them in. A fumble is the opposite of a critical hit (or critical success) - its most common manifestation is a roll of 1 in a d20-based game (with a roll of 20 being the critical). Veteran game designer Monte Cook has some thoughts on fumble mechanics, and talks about them and how his Numenera RPG (and all of the Cypher System line) use an "intrusion" instead.

Fumble mechanics have been part of the tabletop RPG experience for decades. Even where games don't have a fumble mechanic, many players house rule them in. A fumble is the opposite of a critical hit (or critical success) - its most common manifestation is a roll of 1 in a d20-based game (with a roll of 20 being the critical). Veteran game designer Monte Cook has some thoughts on fumble mechanics, and talks about them and how his Numenera RPG (and all of the Cypher System line) use an "intrusion" instead.


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It can be a divisive issue. If you're like me, you've experimented with fumble mechanics of various kinds over the years. When I was 12, I remember one character accidentally shooting a fellow character in the back of the head and killing him. Monte Cook's thoughts on the matter are that "we don’t want to run games that “punish” players for rolling bad. A GM intrusion isn’t meant to be “punishment”—it’s meant to make things more interesting. But a fumble, for many people, just seems like a moment for everyone to laugh at them, and that’s not always fun."

If you look around, you'll find dozens of fumble house rules for most games. They clearly provide a draw to those who like to tinker with their games. But many games deliberately do not include any such rule.

You can read the rest of Monte's article here. What are your thoughts on fumble mechanics?
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Right. Some of the best examples of which are when a character or object has a special quality that is hard to quantify in game mechanics. For example, if you roll a 1 your Nausicaa-style wind glider may glitch up, or the bizarre mutterings of that creepy extra-dimensional mega owl might start to make sense and infect your brain.

These things are of no fault of the player-character, but are certainly worthwhile consequences in every sense.

I don't disagree with that, but they are also certainly fumbles in every sense as well.
 

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delericho

Legend
This entire subject is nonsense overwrought thinking.

It's really not. Because player psychology impacts on their enjoyment of the game, and the more players enjoy a game the more likely they are to play it again and again. As game designers, then, Monte and his team are wise to consider such things.

As for critical fumbles, two things: firstly, they're really easy for people who want them to house rule them in; while secondly, people who don't like them seem to really dislike them. That says to me the way to go is to leave them out, and then potentially offer an optional Fumbles deck (or just direct players at the Paizo one).
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Every game is different. Some probably work better without "fumbles", some are intricate to gameplay. The D&D system with the 5% chance of rolling a '1' is probably not a great system to use critical fumbles, unless the "fumbles" are fairly minor just like critical hits are fairly minor in a bit extra damage. Which explains why a lot of tables (as we have seen here) add extra rolls on top of the '1' to get true critical errors.

But there is definitely something to be said for game systems that incorporate fumbles directly into the game. The Ghostbusters RPG is famous for that... for having the 'Ghost Die' that replaced the six with the Ghost logo symbol. You always had to roll the Ghost Die as one of however many dice you were rolling for what you were doing, and when the ghost appeared (basically 1 in every 6 rolls), a complication was going to occur. If you succeeded in your action while also rolling the Ghost, you did what you wanted but something odd also occurred... and if you rolled the Ghost and also failed, then something ridiculously bad went off. Now, considering the RPG was a humorous game we're talking Bugs Bunny styled complications and fumbles (so for instance, Walter Peck getting drenched in marshmellow at the end of the movie would probably have been a failed dodge check plus a Ghost), but they were an expected part of the game and built directly into it. So critical fumbles are not inherently a bad thing... they just have to be adjusted for the system they are used in and what kind of results a DM is looking to have for his players.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
It's really not. Because player psychology impacts on their enjoyment of the game, and the more players enjoy a game the more likely they are to play it again and again. As game designers, then, Monte and his team are wise to consider such things.

Or ...is it more wise to consider that there is no "player psychology" that is quantifiable and formulaic in such a fashion. That tables are as likely (if, unfortunately, moreso in some places) to have a player who would flip their chair at the idea of the GM just making up something "bad" to happen to in the situation off the cuff vs. the GM saying "this action has this consequence that we all know about and agree upon" [i.e. a Fumble chart], as they are players who are fine with a GM "intruding" on the [player's side] fiction in such a manner instead of letting the dice dictate the outcome.
 

delericho

Legend
Or ...is it more wise to consider that there is no "player psychology" that is quantifiable and formulaic in such a fashion.

No. If playtests indicate that your players don't like a particular mechanic (for any reason, and even if the maths show that it's a perfectly good mechanic), the designer should probably rethink what he's doing.

Things don't have to be quantifiable and formulaic to be real.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I'd really like to know how a player rolling a one is supposed to be see as equivalent to "GM intrusion"?
How is a player rolling a 1 equivalent of a critical fumble? It's simply an artificial mechanic of the game system.

I also find the premise "we don't want to 'punish' players for rolling badly" to be flawed. Why not?! You give them extra special bonus goodies for rolling well. It's called a critical hit. Why shouldn't rolling badly have bad things happen? First of all, NEITHER is "the player rolling." It's a die roll. It's a game of chance. Random occurrance.
Because they don't want that sort of punishment for their system. Why does it need to be more complicated than that? For the record, it's not called a "critical hit" in the Cypher System. Rolls 1 and 17-20 are simply called "special rolls." And rolling a Natural 1 can result in bad things happening as a consequence of the GM Intrusion.

Just more of this cockamamey world in which no one is ever supposed to lose and everyone is supposed to think that only good things happen and/or THEY, specifically and in all cases, are supposed to have "good things" happen to them.

And three, if one is necessary, it's a GAME! Thicken your damned skin and grow the hell up. The DM is not "punishing" you. The player is not "responsible" for the die roll. Not to mention, the CONSEQUENCES of that die roll...ARE. NOT. REAL.

This entire subject is nonsense overwrought thinking.
This seems hyperbolically hostile toward someone else's preferred game style and tone. It does not mean that no one should lose. If you think so, you may be reading too much into what Monte Cook is saying. A Natural 1, for example, may introduce a complication (e.g. more guards) that does result in a PK or other more severe complications other than a simple "critical fumble."

I don't find emotions to be irrelevant at all. But what I would criticize the article for is seeming to validate a very immature emotional response. Granted, it seems to want to do that in preference to some other equally immature emotional response - mocking your fellow players for failure - but going the other direction is probably no more functional, and in most cases the ribbing and teasing at the table tends to be rather good natured. Failing to separate out good natured ribbing from ill-tempered or arrogant mockery fails to understand the problem, and more over attempting to fix a problem with the social contract by some mechanical in game artifice is just doomed to failure. Problems in the game can be fixed with mechanics, but problems that are external to the game - like some player seeing the point of play being to express his superiority to the other people that are present and to abuse them emotionally - can't really be fixed by fiddling with the mechanics. No end of problems at a table are owed to treating out of game problems with in game solutions, or in game problems with out of game solutions.
I would disagree that this article "is seeming to validate a very immature emotional response." Frustration is a natural feeling for players at the game table, and I don't think that it is an immature emotional response. I don't think that Monte Cook conflates "good natured ribbing" with "ill-tempered or arrogant mockery." Again, as Monte Cook in the article says early on, "It’s a funny moment, and we’ve all been there..." He clearly recognizes that there is often good-natured ribbing involved with the Natural 1. But game mechanics do affect the tone of the game and how they are played. Some game mechanics, particularly in some co-op board games (game vs. player), engender a sense of urgency. And this does impact the players themselves. For me, the GM Intrusion does not exist as a miracle cure-all for this ribbing, whether good- or ill-natured, but it is meant to shift the tone of their game away from a particular cultural norm surrounding the d20 Natural 1 roll.

That's not at all what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that success and failure are two sides of the same coin, and have to be accepted together in any sort of mature game. There is nothing inherently bad about the idea of fumbling. Indeed, there is nothing inherently bad about the idea of bumbling. My example of Hon Solo was not chosen at random, as one of the things that marks his character (at least in the original trilogy) is that he's all the time fumbling and all the time dealing with failure. He basically fails every 'fast talking' roll he ever tries. He comes across as extremely competent at times and yet at other times he fails a Stealth check and gets backhanded in the face. The exact mechanics of how a system does this are irrelevant to the point.
I don't recall pointing fingers at anyone, Celebrim, nor did I intend to do so. So I apologize if you felt that my post was directly primarily at you. I read the thread, and I responded to a collective sense regarding some of the criticism, which I find to be unduly unfair to the system and the thrust of Monte Cook's argument.

Failure is a part of the game. And one can fail in this game. It just does not have to be symmetrical, nor is success and failure symmetrical in this game. As I have said, there are no auto-successes (apart from the 0 TN) and there are no auto-failures. To that extent, success and failure are symmetrical. The only difference is that there are not corresponding penalties for low rolls (e.g. -3 points of damage or a minor failure effect for rolling a 2) as there are for high rolls (e.g. +3 points of damage or a minor effect for rolling a 19).

Now, in your Han Solo example one could easily say that Han Solo's Natural 1 does not represent a critical fumble, but a complication introduced by a GM Intrusion. He attempted to open a blast door - rolled a 1 - but the GM decides that his tinkering instead caused a secondary blast door to also seal itself. It's also possible that Han Solo is not rolling Natural 1s and auto-failures in these occasions you list, but is simply failing his checks. Are you sure that Han Solo is rolling a 1? What if he is just rolling a 2? Is that not also a potential Stealth check failure that would get him noticed?

All of which is just semantic gloss for the practical effect that rolling a 1 is a fumble in the system. The nature of this fumble may be very broadly defined to basically anything that the GM may wish to invent, but it is a fumble nonetheless. Indeed, it could be said that in general a player might find this system to be the most extreme sorts of fumbles imaginable - worse in some fashion than a table of results. For even more so than a table of results, the mechanic ensures that a roll of 1 carries with it some reality warping jinx that creates complications in the fiction even where no complications were previously present in the stakes.
You are welcome to call it a semantic gloss if it makes you feel better, but those "semantic glosses" matter as they impact the tone, narrative, and flexibility of the system. I'm not sure, however, how the GM Intrusion is a "reality warping jinx" anymore than the "critical fumble." You roll a one, resulting in you forgetting how to attack with your weapon and cause severe harm to another player? The GM Intrusion should be within the parameters of narrative verisimilitude. As I said before (as well as Monte Cook in his article says), a GM Intrusion in some cases may entail what amounts to a "critical fumble," if the GM deems that appropriate for the scenario. But the point that Monte Cook is making is simply that within the rules of the Cypher System, a Natural 1 is not inherently an automatic failure. And this rule assumption is, once again, in the same system in which a Natural 20 is not an automatic success either, as it is in other systems.
 
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RotGrub

First Post
I remember one character accidentally shooting a fellow character in the back of the head and killing him.

That sounds like great fun. That is the very kind of thing that makes D&D so much fun. D&D is not limited to a typical heroic storyline, anything can happen to anyone at any time.

My group has used fumbles since 1e. I agree that 5% is a bit too high, that's why my group usually requires an ability check or a saving throw on a natural 1. Of course, we also use critical failures for skill checks too.
 

It's really not. Because player psychology impacts on their enjoyment of the game, and the more players enjoy a game the more likely they are to play it again and again. As game designers, then, Monte and his team are wise to consider such things.

As for critical fumbles, two things: firstly, they're really easy for people who want them to house rule them in; while secondly, people who don't like them seem to really dislike them. That says to me the way to go is to leave them out, and then potentially offer an optional Fumbles deck (or just direct players at the Paizo one).


How does one design an actual game if any mechanic that might result in losing is rejected because some players may have their enjoyment impacted?

Based on that premise designing a game would be a nightmare.Imagine this conversation at Parker Brothers:

" In Monopoly we will have to change the rules to make going bankrupt impossible. In testing many players hated being eliminated from the game."

" How else can the game end?"

" Not sure about that. All I know is that we have a room full butthurt in there."

Unless I missed something the Monopoly game continues to be popular.

No. If playtests indicate that your players don't like a particular mechanic (for any reason, and even if the maths show that it's a perfectly good mechanic), the designer should probably rethink what he's doing.

Things don't have to be quantifiable and formulaic to be real.

What if you are trying to design a game and the reason that some players don't like certain mechanics is because such mechanics make the game a game?

Suppose all poker hands held equal ranking? Ace high was as good as royal flush. How would you play? You have players who cannot stand anyone holding a hand that outranked theirs and this is the result.

Rather than being forced to create mechanics that shield the fragile egos of those who cannot accept all outcomes of play why not just design games for those that enjoy them.
 

Celebrim

Legend
You are welcome to call it a semantic gloss if it makes you feel better...

Irony.

And you are welcome to call fumbles complications if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change fundamentally what is going on which is that the roll of a 1 just made the situation markedly worse in some fashion. The roll of the 1 in some fashion empowers the GM to inject something into the fiction which changes the stakes for the worse.

Now, in your Han Solo example one could easily say that Han Solo's Natural 1 does not represent a critical fumble, but a complication introduced by a GM Intrusion. He attempted to open a blast door - rolled a 1 - but the GM decides that his tinkering instead caused a secondary blast door to also seal itself. It's also possible that Han Solo is not rolling Natural 1s and auto-failures in these occasions you list, but is simply failing his checks. Are you sure that Han Solo is rolling a 1?

Of course we can't perfectly equate action within a movie not created as a result of gameplay to action created as a result of any particular game system, so I can't be 'sure' that Han Solo rolls a 1 whenever he tries to hot wire the blast doors. However, the example is I think still perfectly germane.

Han Solo's player proposes to hot wire the blast doors.
The stakes are either the blast doors remain closed or the blast doors open.
The GM sets the difficulty of this action.
Han Solo's player rolls, but no only does he fail, he fails by some margin that indicates a fumble within the system.
The GM inserts a new complication. Not only do the doors remain closed, but now "matters are worse" - a second set of blast doors closes.

This is I think a very good example of GM fictional intrusion in the event of a fumble. In this example, it doesn't matter whether or not the second set of blast doors even existed prior to the fumble - the GM is empowered to create them in response to the fumble result.

And the situation is in context funny, and meant to be funny, and Han - the long suffering, often bumbling, sometimes tortured, sometimes inadvertent hero - becomes to a certain extent the object of ridicule from the audience. This is both the intention of the author - we are meant to laugh at his folly - and a rather unavoidable result of displays of incompetence. But we are also meant to empathize with this 'regular guy' optimistically facing one new impossible challenge after the other without surrender - "Never tell me the odds!" He has his moments of shining awesome to go along with his fumbles.

Now, if it makes 'Hans' player feel better to call his fumbles 'complications', that's fine I guess for marketing, but that's a nod to Han's player's immaturity who apparently wants to believe he only has shining moments of awesome and never bumbling stumbling steps along the way. It's also a bit of self-deception on the part of the GM, who is busy creating fumbles but avoiding all 'negative' language as if somehow failure could be sufficiently padded as to never sting a little. Indeed, if it is the goal to avoid that sting of failure and that sense of bumbling hero in a story that we get when Han makes the problem dramatically worse, one wonders why you have a 'introduce complications on a 1 rule' in the first place. Far from shifting the tone away from a cultural norm surrounding the roll of 1 on a D20 roll, the system is in fact creating a cultural norm where none necessarily existed before. For example, in my D&D 3.X game, it's not even necessarily true that a roll of 1 is anything other than success, and indeed obtaining a degree of skill that provides for autosuccess on simple actions is a rather important part of the game - the player is empowered to propose actions, even stunts, that can't fail. And in many D20 games, rolling a 1 provides no special complication, as the GM is not empowered to intrude into fiction to turn that bad roll into a significant fiction altering event. The roll of a 1 in D&D by default implies no more serious bumbling of an action than throwing up an air ball in a game of basketball.

And yet this is the guy that says of his system:

we don’t want to run games that “punish” players for rolling bad. A GM intrusion isn’t meant to be “punishment”—it’s meant to make things more interesting. But a fumble, for many people, just seems like a moment for everyone to laugh at them, and that’s not always fun

This is nonsense, both as it pertains to Monte's system specifically, and as it pertains to his claim that the roll of a 1 in his system is not a fumble and to the idea of fumbles generally.

Even games without fumbles still punish players for rolling bad. You don't need to roll a 1 to fail a saving throw and die. You don't need a roll a 1 to miss an attack. My current campaign has a PC whose shtick is making magically enhanced attacks and then using True Strike to ensure that investment is not wasted. Not unsurprisingly, his rolls of a 1 stand out especially - not because they generally lead to fumble - but because those 'rare' rolls waste all the investment in resources and preparation he put into the attack. I don't know how many times he's muttered the mantra, "Not a 1... not a 1... not a 1...", only to throw that dreaded 1 and moan in agony.

Yet Monte seems to think that not only should a player not experience that, but in his game which explicitly creates a fumble mechanic on the throw of a 1(!!!), that the game isn't to punish players for bad rolls. This is just epic levels of self-delusion.

You just can't separate out the idea of "punishment" with "making things more interesting" unless the thing that "makes things more interesting" in fact rewards the player. If "makes things more interesting" is to mean in any sense, "Matters just got worse", then of course it punishes the player for failure... and that's perfectly OK! And it's perfectly ok to laugh at failure as well, and to take some pleasure - even as the person enduring the failure - in the resulting consequences. If Monte didn't actually believe that, he would have never created the "introduce complications on a 1" rule in the first place.

To drill this down to the heart of the matter, what Monte is touching on but not actually saying is the idea of "fail forward" explicitly stated in other systems. "Fail forward" is an extremely divisive issue in game design, in part because the term is used to mean slightly different things in different systems. But the way it is often used in discussions of the concept of "complications" is exactly the incoherent way that Monte is doing when he says things like "we don’t want to run games that “punish” players for rolling bad." You'll see advocates for "fail forward" taking it to the extreme of, "failure is bad, so games shouldn't have it". And that's why Monte's essay is generating such controversy, because when you say something like "we don't want to run games that "punish" players for rolling bad", he seems to be validating that extreme "failure is bad, so it's wrong" position that both misunderstands what real problem "fail forward" was originally intended to solve and how essential failure is to an enjoyable game.

Monte's GM insertion mechanic is NOT a true "fail forward" mechanic. It's a true fumble mechanic. The whole, "it doesn't have to be a fumble, because we wouldn't want to have the audience (the other players) laughing at a characters missteps" thing is ridiculous.
 
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delericho

Legend
How does one design an actual game if any mechanic that might result in losing is rejected because some players may have their enjoyment impacted?

Nobody is suggesting removing "any mechanic that might result in losing". Reductio ad absurdum isn't helpful here.

What if you are trying to design a game and the reason that some players don't like certain mechanics is because such mechanics make the game a game?

Again, nobody is suggesting that. Unless you're going to contend that an RPG must have a critical fumble rule or it's not a game?
 

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